Futures in firewire

General Discussion
61

Many very valid point for sure. Great post. But I have never been a glass on fan. I think boxed boards ride better. But then I rarely have ridden any board I didn’t tweak (even ones with glass ons). Always have been of the opinion that most boards can be bettered after the fact. Look again at the pro guys. They keep about 1 out of 10 of the boards they get. The rest are sold off. If they knew how to tweak they’d be keeping 9 out of 10. Fin boxes allow for this better than glass ons.

BTW in our business we always refer to 18 - 25 as the brain dead years. Have had dozens of employees over the span and it’s about 95% true … maybe 99%.

62

Craftee,

to reply to your statement…

“Here’s the (my) bottom line: provide the adjustability, with the feel and performance of glass ons, develop a wide ranging fin selection that satisfies most, with good distribution (easy to buy) and youve hit a home run. But only to those that want to adjust.”

the proof is in the pudding both 4 ways and Lokbox can perform like glass on’s…both have developed fibreglass fin foils and Hex-lites.

but you see you have fallen into the same trap as all others believing that a wide range of fins is what is needed, it’s been drummed into us, that is exactly what has been promoted by both fcs and futures over the last decade! the reality is, yes you need different fin foils to suit different shapes and surfers but you don’t need 30+ foils when you have the adjustability factor.

w.r.t “but to only those who want to adjust” assertion, i say that applies to everyone… when u buy the latest bicycle…would one buy the one with 6 gears or the one with 18 gears for only $20 more??? Hell NO! of course we all will buy the 18 gears why??? …because even tho we won’t use them all, we percieve the value in having them!

That’s exactly what i am saying, having adjustability is a VALUE, whether you need to use it or not is up to the individual but when u do need it, IT WILL save you a lot of money as u won’t need to buy another expensive set of fins or at worst another surfboard, more often than not …from another shaper!

The value system works both ways, for the surfer and shaper, and that’s no pie in the sky!

Whilst i agree that surfers might not have the aptitude to dealing with adjusting their fins, the Shapers SHOULD! after all they are the experienced ones who SHOULD understand what these changes will mean for the surfer and thereby cement their position of service and personalized contact in a market now driven by who can make the cheapest surfboard no matter where it was made!

Those who have taken control of technology ultimately become the leaders! the rest follow like sheep. If any shaper is serious about where they are going to be in the industry in the next 5 years, they best start understanding fin technologies and embracing it as it only serves to strengthen their position in the market place ultimately.

Regards

dean

63

if anyone needs a how to on LokBox there is one on the surfermag design forum. It’s probably here on Sways as well. If you can’t find it PM me, I have it saved as a word doc.

64
Quote:

"But I have never been a glass on fan. I think boxed boards ride better. But then I rarely have ridden any board I didn’t tweak (even ones with glass ons). Always have been of the opinion that most boards can be bettered after the fact. Look again at the pro guys. They keep about 1 out of 10 of the boards they get. The rest are sold off. If they knew how to tweak they’d be keeping 9 out of 10. Fin boxes allow for this better than glass ons. "

Greg, couldn’t agree more!

classic story of a board that i had shaped, had glass ons…supa light felt great! just went sh#t…put in the garage for a year, one day took it out, rode it still went sh#t! ( now i know i am gonna get someone posting …“accept that i am a Sh#t shaper” after this…)

but anyway, that afternoon, ground the fixed fins off, put 4 ways in them and reset them 1/16" toe-out…

the same year i rode that board and won the Nationals on it! and that’s no Bull…

from that day on, i was sold on the path of developements that 4 ways had embarked on!

and to think how much those team boards must be costing those shapers…hmmmmnnnn makes u think hey!

cheers

dean

66
Quote:

Craftee,

to reply to your statement…

“Here’s the (my) bottom line: provide the adjustability, with the feel and performance of glass ons, develop a wide ranging fin selection that satisfies most, with good distribution (easy to buy) and youve hit a home run. But only to those that want to adjust.”

the proof is in the pudding both 4 ways and Lokbox can perform like glass on’s…both have developed fibreglass fin foils and Hex-lites.

Those who have taken control of technology ultimately become the leaders! the rest follow like sheep. If any shaper is serious about where they are going to be in the industry in the next 5 years, they best start understanding fin technologies and embracing it as it only serves to strengthen their position in the market place ultimately.

Regards

dean

Now I am a bit confused. You mention your system along with probox and Lokbox on another thread with regards to adjustablity and riding like glass ons…but on this you use your system and lokbox only. Which is it? All three or just you two? Honest question. It has been my understanding that Probox was also created with fiberglass fins in mind instead of plastic. I agree with Greg to some degree on glass ons. If you have a dog you can’t do much about it. Boxes allow the possibility of changing that.

As for those who have taken control of technology becoming the leaders: Sorry, but the facts simply don’t show this. FCS rules the fin box world with distribution with Futures lagging a bit behind. This is not a cut on your system which I am not familiar with, but it’s not even on the radar on the same level as Probox and Lokbox yet. Both of which have yet to gain a foothold in the mainstream " at this time."

I would say the leaders (if by leading you mean set the standard) are those that can best communicate or sell their products. Some of the smaller companies can make a good living for themselves and will notice and be effected by compition more, but the big boys with the big budgets and good marketing (true or not) will usually end up the leaders unless the small guys with the better products figure a way to gain more marketshare and etc.

Look at Greg’s post: He mentions Rusty, Lost and CI as the state of the art. Thats the mentality the magazines have trained surfers like seals into believing. I can’t imagine a less imaginative lot than those companies. They have been producing pretty much the same thing for decades and only now are they really attempting to mix it up a bit. Not an attack on Greg, but coming from him with his tinker background…it suprises me a bit.

I think most of the innovation will still come from the progressive tinkers and shapers looking for somthing truly different. Then the sucess with come from the promoters. Hopefully promoters with some honesty and integrity.

67

found it:

http://forum.surfermag.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB4&Number=1087433&Searchpage=1&Main=909234&Words=+vespagetti&topic=&Search=true#Post1087433

copied it too–that place goes on the fritz too often to not copy the thread onto Word

68

Whilst i agree that surfers might not have the aptitude to dealing with adjusting their fins, the Shapers SHOULD! after all they are the experienced ones who SHOULD understand what these changes will mean for the surfer and thereby cement their position of service and personalized contact in a market now driven by who can make the cheapest surfboard no matter where it was made!

And the only way for shapers to know is by going out and riding, then coming in making an adjustment going back out and riding … again and again. Once you’ve done it enough you finally get it. I discovered how to tweak boards a long time ago (we’re back to Theory of Balance … again). I used to shape in Palm Beach once a week. I would have appointments with customers who would come in for a tweak because their board wasn’t quite right. We had a policy there that if you didn’t like your board we’d give you a new one. But we would attempt to make the first one ride and 95% of the time we could. I even had people bring competitors boards in. Always thought that was kinda ballzy but we’d fix em up and usually the next board they’d buy from us. But 4wfs has it exactly right, the personal sevice we provided was infinately better than trying to make a cheap something that just filled a space in a retail store.

69
Quote:

Whilst i agree that surfers might not have the aptitude to dealing with adjusting their fins, the Shapers SHOULD! after all they are the experienced ones who SHOULD understand what these changes will mean for the surfer and thereby cement their position of service and personalized contact in a market now driven by who can make the cheapest surfboard no matter where it was made!

And the only way for shapers to know is by going out and riding, then coming in making an adjustment going back out and riding … again and again. Once you’ve done it enough you finally get it. I discovered how to tweak boards a long time ago (we’re back to Theory of Balance … again). I used to shape in Palm Beach once a week. I would have appointments with customers who would come in for a tweak because their board wasn’t quite right. We had a policy there that if you didn’t like your board we’d give you a new one. But we would attempt to make the first one ride and 95% of the time we could. I even had people bring competitors boards in. Always thought that was kinda ballzy but we’d fix em up and usually the next board they’d buy from us. But 4wfs has it exactly right, the personal sevice we provided was infinately better than trying to make a cheap something that just filled a space in a retail store.

And I agree with this almost 100%. Which is why I was a bit shocked that you used the Rusty and Lost comparison on the other thread. You as a shaper striving for customer sastisfaction and the best riding board instead of numbers seems opposite of those companies striving for numbers and profit margins.

70

Solo,

probox is included.

I beg to differ about being on the radar as you mentioned… what happens in the USA & Hawaii doesn’t constitute the whole world…it might make the most “noise”…

Whilst the USA is a key commercial market of the world, others such as Australia, Japan & Europe are also as commercially viable.

What i mean is what we are led to believe is that, because fcs has a well established distribution network that it suddenly represents everything in what a surfboard needs…

why do u think there are thousands and thousands of shapers worldwide??? they all represent a local area with it’s own surf conditions, they understand the micro conditions of their surfing environment intimately and can pass on that knowledge to the surfers in the area by making and selling custom surfboards…now tell me where the need for GLOBAL distribution becomes that important???

I’ve been making surfboards for 21 years and the reality is because i use and endorse 4 ways ( i haven’t lost any sales!) if any body was adament they wanted that “popular” fin system, i gave it to them (but charged them more… “penalized” them so to speak for making them take that decision, didn’t loose a sale, just made 99% think harder about what they really needed… a crappy “static” fin system or system that can provide huge potential for enhanced performance… )

how many of those clients needed a fin system that they can have spares in the most remote locations of Indo??? NONE! coz the fact is if they break a plug or a fin there’s no chance of them getting a spare in a hurry (unless they want to pay a fortune for it)…

The point is most surfers want a fin system, period! easy to travel with …priority # 1… the issue of availability is another thing being drummed into us, we don’t need it, we only need our spare set of fins when we go on our $2000 surf trip…after all, it’s not like we only take one board…if we go prepared how important is distribution worldwide for the local shaper??? just a thought…

But i agree with you, all great ideas need to be merged with great marketing ideas to have them realized. Hopefully as you said they are merged with people with integrity and honesty…

Getting very late this side, thanks for your views, good night.

Regards

Dean

71

Whether I like it or not, those companies lead the surfboard world and they do it through marketing. The tinkerers without marketing are nowhere. I wish it were different but it’s not. Good news today is that those companies are beginning to look and respect the tinkerers. This absolutely didn’t happen pre-Clark demise.

Personal service lies with custom board builders and with retailers. Knowledge amongst them varies enormously but generally neither are as good as they should be. Look at the ski industry. They hire experts to work at retail and they are industry trained. Doesn’t happen often in surf shops does it?

72

Your post #62 was much MUCH more convincing than your post #55 4wfs.

That should be the message, not the pro/shaper miscommunication bit.

Btw, I havent fallen in any ‘trap’. You know as well as I do that changing fins makes a BIG difference. What youre impliying or saying is that tweaking fin settings has a bigger affect than changing fins themselves. I have my own opinion…technically, Im fairly certain that we agree more than we disagree. But honestly, the jury is still out whether the market is prepared to accept that.

I do know this: the perfect fin system doesnt exist. Ive tried the lot and its one trade off for another. The good news is that most systems perform as sold. This is good. Choices are good.

But if you want to know the truth, as I see it…one of the reasons there has been so much attention on foils and other finer elements, is that very few are willing to go outside of a std thruster setup. I certainly have been guilty of this. Obviously, times are changing.

73

Whatever happened to Bert Berger.I would like to know what he thinks about fins and the way they can change a board.I am sure that he has tried other fin systems and could really give some good feedback.

74
Quote:

Whether I like it or not, those companies lead the surfboard world and they do it through marketing. The tinkerers without marketing are nowhere. I wish it were different but it’s not. Good news today is that those companies are beginning to look and respect the tinkerers. This absolutely didn’t happen pre-Clark demise.

Personal service lies with custom board builders and with retailers. Knowledge amongst them varies enormously but generally neither are as good as they should be. Look at the ski industry. They hire experts to work at retail and they are industry trained. Doesn’t happen often in surf shops does it?

Probably the post of the thread. I don’t know if Rusty leads any longer or lost. Seems to me it’s more CI and JS today. No matter though…I get your message. I pointed the very thing out in one of my post. The tinker guys will not get to large markets without marketing skill or money from big guys. Products do not just stand on their own. They must to some degree be sold and yes…I think experts with knowledge should sell them. Good luck finding that in 90 % of surf shops today.

75
Quote:

Solo,

probox is included.

I beg to differ about being on the radar as you mentioned… what happens in the USA & Hawaii doesn’t constitute the whole world…it might make the most “noise”…

Whilst the USA is a key commercial market of the world, others such as Australia, Japan & Europe are also as commercially viable.

What i mean is what we are led to believe is that, because fcs has a well established distribution network that it suddenly represents everything in what a surfboard needs…

why do u think there are thousands and thousands of shapers worldwide??? they all represent a local area with it’s own surf conditions, they understand the micro conditions of their surfing environment intimately and can pass on that knowledge to the surfers in the area by making and selling custom surfboards…now tell me where the need for GLOBAL distribution becomes that important???

I’ve been making surfboards for 21 years and the reality is because i use and endorse 4 ways ( i haven’t lost any sales!) if any body was adament they wanted that “popular” fin system, i gave it to them (but charged them more… “penalized” them so to speak for making them take that decision, didn’t loose a sale, just made 99% think harder about what they really needed… a crappy “static” fin system or system that can provide huge potential for enhanced performance… )

how many of those clients needed a fin system that they can have spares in the most remote locations of Indo??? NONE! coz the fact is if they break a plug or a fin there’s no chance of them getting a spare in a hurry (unless they want to pay a fortune for it)…

The point is most surfers want a fin system, period! easy to travel with …priority # 1… the issue of availability is another thing being drummed into us, we don’t need it, we only need our spare set of fins when we go on our $2000 surf trip…after all, it’s not like we only take one board…if we go prepared how important is distribution worldwide for the local shaper??? just a thought…

But i agree with you, all great ideas need to be merged with great marketing ideas to have them realized. Hopefully as you said they are merged with people with integrity and honesty…

Getting very late this side, thanks for your views, good night.

Regards

Dean

Good stuff Dean. Thanks…I understand now. I didn’t mean to imply anyone would lose a sale because of using one of your systems. Quite the contrary. I use one of the systems myself for my production and I am always open to other systems. No slight intended on yours or any other system out there. As I said…because one chooses this system over that…it does not mean the other systems are not valid or good. Like someone said…there is no perfect system. Back to losing sales. Customers buy what they are sold. Those customers that must have FCS or futures are the herd and will likely only be dealing in the mainstream type shops anyway. The shops that only carry what the magazines tell them to will likely find themselves closing down at some point or with reduced sales in the new market world. Customers are begining to exapand their thinking and the surf market is no longer just the spicoli 15 year old anymore.

I agree on availibility. Don’t forget your spare fins, plugs or incerts and you have no worry. Lose any other fin and your in the same delema.

Good stuff coming in

76

thanx for the reply,

in this competitive age, agreed, the key is service, those who service their clients will have and ever-growing re-circulation of clients due to thier personal contact and influence over decisions made.

Firstly, adjustable fins systems offer this key to both shapers and retailers… those who adopt this broaden their minds and client base, those who don’t …will be fighting the war with the cheapest brds made from the cheapest location…

Once adjustability becomes accepted, then the race for the best adjustable fin system will be on, thankfully 4 ways has covered everything making us the only fully adjustable fin system out there…

Thanx

dean

77

Hi Dean

As there is very little interest from Pros in working to tune in there fins to their shapes(,most prefer glass ons so they don’t have to think!) the flow on from this is that customers who buy s/bds at retail,who are influenced by what they view & read thru sufings comercial marketing vehicles,i.e.ASP tour,mags,video’s…so there is now no real demand at retail for a tech product such as your 4 way system,as you need to spend a fortune sponsoring a potential world champ,to get the system onto the world stage and into the thinking of general surf masses-this is the current formula for success in the surf industry.the fact thet your system is technically superior is irrelevant,its all about perception,and it s $'s that now rule the day-the downside for desiner/shapers is that todays pros are not willing or able to real r&d as one of the problems is that there is basically only 10 weeks from the end of one WCT season to the next,with Xmas new year in between and surfers trying to have break with famillies/friends etc not much time to train & test new designs & in Aust if you live on the goldcoast you might not get any surf before the new season,so…???perhaps the 100% branding and ownership of the surfers by the company’s, is part of the homoginisation of the SPORT which now does not allow independent designer/shapers access to surfers anymore!hence FCS is a world force and old vacuum technology is accepted as new technology because of $'s spent on intense marketing & the failure of surf jounalists to investigate old /current/new technologies-where are the surf media in all this?,advetorial rules & I am yet to read any article that has provided any clarification on current or future technologies,its all recycled 25 yr old eps/epoxy,vacuum bagging tech,sorry to have gone on for so long but iam a swaylocks virgin and a one finger typer,but have found a forum that seems to live partly outside the current surfmag system…so hopefuuly I can start to contribute some ideas etc in the coming…???

thanx

  M
78 
       <span style="font-weight:bold"> Re: [blakestah] 4 Way Fin System - feedback???<span style="font-size:6px">Posted: Jul 26, 2007, 2:39 PM

Post # 18 of 59 ( 2141 views) [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hi Blakestah, You are right we at Probox have been in R&D mode with Toe-in options for some time. The market is fairly new to all these options, I wanted to let the market experience the wide range of adjustments while we at Probox keep progressing to push the limits with a superior fin system and fin designs. When I go to manufactures now they blow their mines with all of the Probox options. We will keep you informed with new things as they happen! I will post more later next week after all my Probox orders from the Swaylockians and Distributors are shipped. Thanks for your close attention to fine detail Blakestah. Mahalo,Larry

Probox/Larry

(This post was edited by Probox-Larry on Jul 26, 2007, 2:57 PM

Dean, I have been watching this thread, your comment about being the only fin system out there having all the adjustments is NOT CORRECT. Here’s a post on your thread back in July stating Probox thoughts and feelings about toe-in. Just wanted to make sure everyone keeps their facts striaght. Sorry for breaking in. Mahalo,Larry

Quote:

thanx for the reply,

in this competitive age, agreed, the key is service, those who service their clients will have and ever-growing re-circulation of clients due to thier personal contact and influence over decisions made.

Firstly, adjustable fins systems offer this key to both shapers and retailers… those who adopt this broaden their minds and client base, those who don’t …will be fighting the war with the cheapest brds made from the cheapest location…

Once adjustability becomes accepted, then the race for the best adjustable fin system will be on, thankfully 4 ways has covered everything making us the only fully adjustable fin system out there…

Thanx

dean

79

Hi Larry,

i didn’t received the link to the thread you mentioned…

I wasn’t aware that Probox could adjust it’s Toe, can it?

I was under the impression it could change fore-aft and splay/cant only ?

am i correct…???

lastly, what i meant with the assertion tht 4 ways IS the leader in FULL adjustability still stands as we have technologies devloped that no-one has EVER seen before… but we are hanging onto to it and will release it when the time is right…

That by no means is a knock on u guys, so u can take it as you want, i am more than happy to support the adjustability movement cause and get the message out there, after all the more noise we can all make then better. That’s why i have made both positive statements about Lokbox and Probox.

cheers

Dean

80
Quote:

Hi Larry,

i didn’t received the link to the thread you mentioned…

I wasn’t aware that Probox could adjust it’s Toe, can it?

I was under the impression it could change fore-aft and splay/cant only ?

am i correct…???

lastly, what i meant with the assertion tht 4 ways IS the leader in FULL adjustability still stands as we have technologies devloped that no-one has EVER seen before… but we are hanging onto to it and will release it when the time is right…

That by no means is a knock on u guys, so u can take it as you want, i am more than happy to support the adjustability movement cause and get the message out there, after all the more noise we can all make then better. That’s why i have made both positive statements about Lokbox and Probox.

cheers

Dean

No Woories Dean, The copy at the beginning of my post is from your thread; 4 Way Fin System-feedback???, Post#18, page-1. Didn’t mean to mislead you about Probox, but just wanted to remind you that we at Probox are also developing new things and made it aware that toe-in is in our line-up in due time on your 4 Way Fin System-feedback thread dated July 26 of this year. Thanks for the positive comments about Probox. Mahalo,Larry