yes greg i agree
but greg lohores name droping ( make ya puke)
try droping those names onthe gold coast.
huie
H,
I think this place is the place–let’s keep it all honest by keeping it all out front here, ya know?
I personally almost don’t trust manufacturers who DON’T post at Swaylocks–the guys that share here are the salt of the earth.
ProBox Larry and LokBox Jimmy, 4Way Dean, and the master shapers that share what theyre doing with us, help us out, and even open themselves up to feedback are the super-kine brothers–it stokes me out.
You can sort the sell from the goods with these guys–the ones I named don’t offend ya, do they? I think the world of those guys–they have the goods and aloha
g
thanks greg you said it better than i could
huie
all this talk about finsystems and it has sfa to do with how a board goes
wtf
just use wood instead of corecell and nevermind the bollocks
or better yet build a dragon board
What I need is a homestyle jig for LokBox–ideas?
I dont use a jig. I properly position the box and trace the outline with a pencil/marker. Then cut along the trace with a blade at the approx depth. Then with a small trim router with a 1/4" bit, freehand the flange cut in the foam, just inside the outline. The remaining unrouted bit flyes off during the cut or gets pulled off afterwards. Then trace the box portion and freehand that with the router.
Im my years in engineering, I realized there are generally two types…theoretists and clever practical applicators. The applicators get more valuable things done, the theoretists are good in occasional bite site portions.
I fancy myself an applicator, with little enough money and experience and surf that things matter relatively a lot
Good stuff–just kinda wanted to hear/see someone else was doing that freehanding of LokBox besides Milan
Be nice if the jigs were small, simple and either free or super-cheap with LokBox, like they are with ProBox and 4Way
Quote:
and nevermind the bollocks
Now here is a poster after my own heart.
BTW: Them Gators looked pretty darn good Sat.
More importantly guys, this is our “industry” opportunity to be able to get to the grass roots and to interact with all sectors of the surfing community. I don’t see our posts as promoting a new fin or inter-disc etc…if it’s raised in a discussion we’ll discuss it and hopefully point people in the right direction so as to avoid misunderstandings amoungst our fellow surf-folk. (and u know how easy that happens…)
Lastly, the difference between the guys like Larry, Jimmy and myself is that we are willling to interact with everyone, try get that from the “big-guns” like bong/quik/fcs/futures…don’t seem to see them sharing much indepth personalized info with all of us???
anyway, information is key! that’s why i like contributing to this forum, it brings all perspectives in, just allow us to say what we need to say without fear that it is some cheap marketing ploy…
keep it up guys,
Regards
Dean
Quote:
all this talk about finsystems and it has sfa to do with how a board goes
wtf
Oh bullshit Paul. lol
wtf, sfa (I like that one), omg, wtf, lol
Thank you for your perspective, Mr CANNON! lol
I totally … TOTALLY agree. But at this point in time I’m not sure if what your doing is reaching the masses. I’m sure that what I’ve written over the years on the subject HASN"T. One day I was talking to Rick Hammond, head shaper at Rusty’s. I was talking about this very subject, adjustability. He said to me, “How are we going to get into the complexites your talking about when I can’'t get a pro to try moving his fin a quarter of an inch.”
Herein lies the problem, Johnny can’t read. You know if we could adjust the fins correctly in, say, the Kelly Slater game, then that would be the place we could relate how fins (and surfboards for that matter) actually work. Fact is many of our leading surfers (the pro ranks) are riding glass ons because they are ignorant of how fins work. Therefore when confronted with a fin system they often use the wrong fin set. For the pro surfer this choice means reponsibility and why should they be responsible for understanding their own equipment? Do you know that most pro surfers won’t change the fin design they use and expect shapers to design around the particular set of fins they want to use? Is this ridiculas or what? If I’m the surfboard designer then shouldn’t I have some sort of input on one of the primary design factors? Perhaps not.
Like you, I know that the range of any surfboard can be dramatically enhanced by changing the fins, not just shape but angles and placement as well. I also know that there are very few bad surfboards in this world and many bad fin jobs that cause surfboards to have poor performance. But try telling that to the A. the media B. the average consumer or C. the top flight pro. If it doesn’t work it’s the shapers fault, right?
As for FW, one step at a time. From a marketing standpoint you need to drive home your message, create some demand. Consumers aren’t asking for you yet because they just don’t know, and even more don’t understand. But you’ve been heard by us and we are aware.
how about
HS holy shit
WC who cares
BS is one we all know
FinH f in hell
HS WC about this BS
FinH MF’S
actually i like the look of 4wf cuz they are a thinner box im told, then fcs so you can shave 3 mm thickness off the tail
big difference in peformance with bertsand construction
thickness is the key when using wood skins
you still get ultra twang from the wood and the core thickness and density alows it to bend
foam skins are like a wet blanket compared and need all this other stuff to make em go better
positive attributes of foam is speed of production and waterproof
but wood used in the right combos kill it for flex return
KISS
Ahh, marketing. You could have the greatest product in the world, but if no one knows about it then it’s about as useful as… well, I won’t go there. Good marketing being backed by good products is always nice, but often it’s great products, poor marketing. And vice versa. But every now and then something good comes along. Just have to wait sometimes as they say.
Quote:
huie these guys have always gotten a pass because most of us are super-interested in the product they sell, and there’s feedback, which we and they may find value in. They’re out on a limb, so it’s not an ad.
There are precedents–some have shared provocative bits of their tech knowledge and stimulated following evolution. Nobody would ever see this stuff in any of the other fora
respectfully submitted
greg
Great post Janklow. No doubt Swaylocks was much more interesting before folks starting getting uptight about others post rather than just ignoring the ones they don’t like. I don’t find much of the stuff written here as shameless self promotion, but the fact is, so what if some have done that. The reason, many a company man reads sways or your average surfer is because of the exellent content here. Even the heated debates contain quite a bit of information and ideology that gives cause to think and to experiment.
Notice many of those whose ads you see here fail to contribute much to the forum itself. I supposed their function is to contribute to the montly cost which is not a bad thing either.
Many of the surf companies I run have benefited greatly from my time on sways. I have made some good buds, learned alot of information, and firmed up some of the information or idealogy I already had. There is some great talent here.
I personally think sways has taken a mild turn towards the uptight in some areas. Calling for mods and worrying about the content of post rather than just letting the swaylocks community weed out the bad apples on their own. Aside from personal attacks or super unwarranted content…I don’t think a mod should lift a finger. The reason people are willing to pay Mike for advertising and other stuff is because of the aggressive and helpful post about the industry and about surfcraft. The conflict about information and tech is as much a part of swaylocks as the helpful hints about shaping boards. Whether that was the intention or not…that is the end result IMO.
I think the discussion on firewire being so high tech, but without high tech fins is a valid discussion. The fact that Jimmy, Tomdaum, and four way speak about their products as they relate to the industry and to Firewire’s claims does not bug me a bit. When I began searching to make the Horan and Revolution board lines I run more 21st century and functional…I found by personal experience and reading swaylocks threads about fin systems that I believe works best for my projects and settled on Probox. I got a few new to the 21st century fins as a bonus with the Spitfire fin and Quadfires. None of that would have come to pass without my association and reading with the swaylocks community. Even those whose systems I don’t use at this time have contributed valuable information and ideas. I respect them for their passion and their ability to communicate.
I know there are other good fin systems out there like Lokbox and I have learned the differences in them from reading Jimmy’s and other’s post. Some prefer to use that system for their projects and others probox or four way etc. None of it means the other systems are not first class and and valid. In today’s surfboard world of seeking out new materials and space age technology to make boards…It baffles me why some of the same people would use fixed surf boxes to go with there so called high tech boards. Especially when you have more than one alternative to choose from and people experienced and willing to help. It’s still obvious that most projects that come from the big business end of the surfing world are always going to be tied to some degree to the herd mentality and their need to fit in with whats hip and cool is usually going to take a higher plane than just shooting straight (which would do).
I think they lose the obvious… that herds are ultimately moved by individuals with real leadership and exellent work. Imagine a large group of truly individual craftsmen, marketers and the like instead of a herd of followers? With such a wealth of talent and ideas on a forum like sways it’s equally baffling many of these big projects keep making the same mistakes by over hyping mediocre, incomplete or even subpar product. Many of the best product ideas are dreamed and created…not by pro surfers, or big clothing company guys, but by those shapers and craftsmen and marketers who do things right and withhold few secrets for the average surfer to have a good time. It’s not about…" the Deal" with them as much as the product.
So…if Jimmy, Larry, Tomdaum, fourway, Bill Barnfield and the host of other talent around here wants to slip in a plug for their company every now and again…it does not bug me a single iota. I suspect the many that have got product and information feel the same. If the big guys with the money don’t like it …let em sqeal. They have their marketshare to keep them warm and fuzzy.
Cheers to all the tinkers, craftsmen, writers, marketers and dreamers.
Sorry for the long post…it’s been awhile.
Respectfully submitted.
Greg, thanx for the response…
I’d like to respond to the few points you made below with my view…
GL: “How are we going to get into the complexites your talking about when I can’'t get a pro to try moving his fin a quarter of an inch.”
This i believe is ISSUE #1! Shapers have forgotten how to lead! 15 years ago, shapers were respected and given the creative freedom to almost try anything to reach new boundaries , today’s modern shaper’s have forgotten to LEAD but rather follow as in “herd-mentality” to what the “masses” want, the masses don’t want FCS, they only know fcs because it was the first and they did a VERY good job of promoting it, but they have been riding a wave that was started by the SHAPERS that took the charge and converted their clients from fixed fins! The industry was faced with the same dillemma then as it is now for shaper like Rick… The key is for shapers to TAKE CONTROL of their product and dictate what fins or fin system need to be used.
IF FW is sold, and some “Jonny” put’s in any-old fcs fins he just fancied due to a well-printed catalog poster printed in one the latest surf mags, WE know that fin won’t work for our shapes or construction, and the surfer’s opinion of our product is left IN THEIR HANDS!
Too many times i hear the industry say “IF THE SURFERS DEMAND IT WE’LL USE IT” absolute madness! I may as well pack up and work in burger shop!
GL: as you said…“Fact is many of our leading surfers (the pro ranks) are riding glass ons because they are ignorant of how fins work. Therefore when confronted with a fin system they often use the wrong fin set.”
And the answer is, AS technology changes, SO too must the shapers…They have to understand technology and what it represents what it does for a surfboard’s performance, and therein lies the REAL challenge, how many of them out there think they “know it all” but in fact don’t even want to understand what fin adjustment can do for a board’s performance and for the surfer who buys that expensive custom-shaped board!
GL: “For the pro surfer this choice means reponsibility and why should they be responsible for understanding their own equipment?”
You are soooo right here! In this day and age of professionalism you’d EXPECT them to know everything about what they are riding…but that’s why Greg, they still looking for that next Magic Board! But they have been taught to follow what the “market wants” and not what the SHAPER wants!
I have spoken to many a top shaper who has made awesome board’s for the team-riders knowing that once surfed only a minor fin adjustment would turn that board into a “Magic” one…
GL: “Do you know that most pro surfers won’t change the fin design they use and expect shapers to design around the particular set of fins they want to use? Is this ridiculas or what?”
Absolutely crazy, when, as shapers, they should be dictating the specs!
GL: If I’m the surfboard designer then shouldn’t I have some sort of input on one of the primary design factors?
Of course the surfboard designers should, it’s what makes the board “tick” afterall, they should be listening to feedback and interpreting from that feedback what is next best…not the other way round.
GL: Like you, I know that the range of any surfboard can be dramatically enhanced by changing the fins, not just shape but angles and placement as well. I also know that there are very few bad surfboards in this world and many bad fin jobs that cause surfboards to have poor performance. But try telling that to the A. the media B. the average consumer or C. the top flight pro. If it doesn’t work it’s the shapers fault, right?
YES, that’s why shapers MUST take charge of their product and not the surfers, it’s fundamental to moving technology ahead…
GL: As for FW, one step at a time. From a marketing standpoint you need to drive home your message, create some demand. Consumers aren’t asking for you yet because they just don’t know, and even more don’t understand. But you’ve been heard by us and we are aware.
Agreed, that will be our role going forward, we will focus on pushing our message to others and for FW theirs, we hope that one day their will be a mergence of ideas and support so that we can TRUELY take the next step in performance!
Good chating
ps: sorry for long post…
Dean
don’t be sorry , it was entertaining and informative. Not everyone has an MTV attention span.
4wfs,
I must say I disagree with some of what youve said in your last post.
Particularly the part about pros preferring glass ons. If as a good designer, do I want a know nothing pro swaping adjusting my design with inadequate cheap molded fins?
Not only do glass ons perform and feel, they also help to maintain a good design.
Very few pros, getting paid to win heats, are gonna ride something that doesnt work good. Unless of course, they get paid more to ride certain products, which isnt likely cuz the big sponsor money comes from apparel co’s.
Here’s the (my) bottom line: provide the adjustability, with the feel and performance of glass ons, develop a wide ranging fin selection that satisfies most, with good distribution (easy to buy) and youve hit a home run. But only to those that want to adjust.
Having said this, fin adjustability has a major role in my designing and Im sure many others feel the same way. But to suggest that everyone benefits from a more complicated approach is pie in the sky. Surfing is argueably a juvenile market and the male mind doesnt fully mature until their mid/late 20’s. Most guys just want to wax their boards and go surf without a lot of fuss. And smart people have been trying educate younger riders of the benefits for years with only minimal success. Trust me, its not your fault. Im sure you could win over quite a few smart open minded 25+'s.
Solo,
I believe we make the best and we’re striving to make better. That’s the only point I was trying to make. Most of the industry is making the same thing they’ve been making for 50 years and aren’t doing much if anything to advance the thing.
Solo,
Not state of the art? Rusty is 80% epoxy, Lost over 50%, FW 100%, JS, don’t know the numbers but substantial for sure with their newest tech, and CI is mounting a major program. These are the state of the art companies. Two years ago I would have agreed but look where it’s going now. Plus new things on the horizon, none of it polyester. Polys a dead duck in the modern world. If performance aspects don’t kill it government sanctions will. Dirty, wastefull, weak. It needs to die. And I’m not talking PU here, I’m talking resins. Epoxy/PU is far more valid than poly/PU. BTW my idealogy also includes how we conduct ourselves environmentally.
Fourway,
Loved the long post. You and I agree on where it should go. We’ll both work in that direction.