hello all
i have just had my '70s G&S 5’6 fish copied into a new board due to worries about getting too many dings on the original - after in depth discussions with the shaper he said he was certain he could make it 95% the same - fair enough i said, payed my deposit and let him get on with it. Afetr a few weeks i went into the factory to see how it was coming on and whilst talking to the glasser he explained how they made the fins (original Star fins and box seem to be unavailable- so glassed on fins was the choice) and were just about to glass them on with a 4o toe in, “STOP” i screamed at him and explained that on the original board (which they had in the factory as well) had parrallel fins and was part of the design, i also made a point of going into the shop, seeing the owner and asking him to make sure that the fins went on parrallel - eventually (yesterday) i picked the board up from the shop, got it home, made a cup of tea, got both boards out and a tape measure - amazing everything was perfect to within a couple of mm - i even measured round the whole board and slid the tape up to the boards fattest point and the boards were within 2mm, then i though i’d weigh them, 2 or 3 oZ difference “bloody hell” i thought , he’s done a perfect job, wow, i’m impressed - - then i looked at the fins , 1cm difference at the front, so the new board had a toe in of 1cm which i had already explained needed to be parrallel -
the question is this - in peoples opinions will this toe in make the board different and if so , in what way - the way i see it is that the original board was designed with parralel fins so that is part of the whole shape and if they were meant to have a toe in then why didn’t they do that - opinions please
thanks
The board will most likely ride better. Back in the day fins were set parallel because single fins were the standard. They did not think to set toe at this time. When thrusters came out we started to toe fins and found that the boards performed better. Fishes with Parallel fins are real drivey down the line. Fishes with toed fins turn better and are much more forgiving. Chris Ward’s fishes have toed fins. But remember he knows how to surf. Look at old videos of surfers from the 70’s riding fishes. They drive down the line with few turns. Then look at videos of today of Chris Ward on a fish. Then tell me what looks better? Retro is OK for the wall.
Try it! Proof is in the pudding.
well, surfdig said it well, but the question i have is this:
1cm toe from leading edge to leading edge, or to stringer on both sides?
1cm total doesn’t sound like a lot of toe to me, and will help the board turn. it may be a tiny bit slower, but i doubt it will be noticeable.
i wouldn’t stress on it.
so basicaly you guys are saying that it will have a loss of drive - i surf in UK and the beach breaks are not particularly the best in the world - the drive from the original board is what made it a bit special - so if drive is lost then it wont be the same - i can turn the original one very well and even do some verticle lip smashjing with it - but with the fins toed in then it will make it sloppier ?? i like the tight drivey feeling that it gives
as for the toe in question - its 1cm total so 1/2 cm each fin
If you made a point of asking for fins straight then that’s what you should get. It’s not that hard to reset the fins if they are glass-ons. I don’t claim to be an expert, but I ride fishes 95 percent of the time. One of my best had a 9x5 keels dead straight. Others with a bit of toe -in anc cant were dogs. 1 cm of toe-in on a keel fin seems like a lot although I think that is how the Brom fishes are set. I’d take it back. mike
I did a retro fish last year and deliberately set the fins with a 1/8" toe in and 2 deg. cant. It ended up riding just fine. I figured a little toe and cant would’nt hurt and it did’nt. You might want to consider riding the board the way it is and if its not to your liking, have the fins reset paralell.
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I did a retro fish last year and deliberately set the fins with a 1/8" toe in and 2 deg. cant. It ended up riding just fine. I figured a little toe and cant would’nt hurt and it did’nt. You might want to consider riding the board the way it is and if its not to your liking, have the fins reset paralell.
Foam Dust said it best. Ride it first. Then Decide.
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The board will most likely ride better. Back in the day fins were set parallel because single fins were the standard. They did not think to set toe at this time. When thrusters came out we started to toe fins and found that the boards performed better. Fishes with Parallel fins are real drivey down the line. Fishes with toed fins turn better and are much more forgiving. Chris Ward’s fishes have toed fins. But remember he knows how to surf. Look at old videos of surfers from the 70’s riding fishes. They drive down the line with few turns. Then look at videos of today of Chris Ward on a fish. Then tell me what looks better? Retro is OK for the wall.
Try it! Proof is in the pudding.
You may be correct about the reason for parallel fins in the fish, but your chronology of cant and toe in fins is way off. I built a twin fin in July, 1974, and it was already common knowledge that the fins should be both canted and toed.
-Samiam
the original G&S was built, according to Larry Gordon between '73 and '75 - the fins are canted slightly but not toed so this suggests that it was meant to be like that - will post some pics later
took it out this evening - it paddles the same , feels the same , even catches waves the same , at times i forgot that i was on the new one - on the first wave i caught it just didn’t have the acceleration that the other one has, it turns smoother but but the speed and feeling of power isn’t there - i’m going to take both boards out tomorow and do 1/2hr on each board to make absolutely sure then if i still feel like the “zing” is missing i shall have the fins realigned - cheers for all the help - i will post some pics tomorow, promise
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the original G&S was built, according to Larry Gordon between '73 and '75 - the fins are canted slightly but not toed so this suggests that it was meant to be like that - will post some pics later
Poor wording on my part. I didn’t mean “should” as if everyone agreed that cant + toe was the only way to do a twin. But the concept was commonplace enough that when I bought my blank, the surf shop proprietor advised me to do it that way.
-Samiam
I like single foiled fins with some toe and cant… 1 to 2 inches toward the nose from parallel and 2 to 4 degrees of cant. I like double foiled fins straight ahead… and I think the old G&S fish a friend had back in the 70s had double foiled fins…???
You gotta consider what’s going on with tail rocker and bottom, too…
I do mine like NJ. If single foiled I toe them and cant them. Double foils straight up, no toe-in. My impression of whether the boards had more drive or carve is independent of the fin foil, cant, and such variables. There are many other variables to consider to make too many generalizations. If the board puts you on the part of the wave you want and lets you surf the way you like is it the fins, rocker, flat bottom, concave bottom, wide point, width, template outline, volume, length? I don’t know. I’m just a garage hacker. If you made the point of setting the fins up a certain way with the builder that is how it should be done. It’s not a big deal to alter them. You could do it yourself or put a fin system in and try many fin combinations. Really nice boards, by the way. mike
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I do mine like NJ. If single foiled I toe them and cant them. Double foils straight up, no toe-in. My impression of whether the boards had more drive or carve is independent of the fin foil, cant, and such variables. There are many other variables to consider to make too many generalizations. If the board puts you on the part of the wave you want and lets you surf the way you like is it the fins, rocker, flat bottom, concave bottom, wide point, width, template outline, volume, length? I don’t know. I’m just a garage hacker. If you made the point of setting the fins up a certain way with the builder that is how it should be done. It’s not a big deal to alter them. You could do it yourself or put a fin system in and try many fin combinations. Really nice boards, by the way. mike
everything has been copied perfectly dimensions wise, so i’m pretty sure the only difference i can find is the fins - i’m going to get the fins paralleled and if that doesn’t sort it out i think i’ll have to put some type of fin system in so i can try different fins
the old fish definately has double foiled, and so does the new one (i think) will check later
Glass-on fins can be removed, re-positioned, and re-glassed-on without much difficulty.
I’ve never been a fan of toed-in keel fins on a fish. I would demand they re-set the fins to match the original. Doing board duplications is a significant part of a lot of shapers’ business, getting it right will only help him in the long run.
I also dispute the notion that fish keel fins are better with standard toe-in. Nothing wrong with parallel! If they were dolphin fins instead it would be different.
thedeadly,
Try to keep in mind the suggestability factor. A lot of the sublety we notice in boards is because we believe it before we ride it. No what I mean? If everybody tells you single foiled keels with toe-in and cant loosen up the board at the expense of a little drive that may be what you expect to notice, so you do. There may be no difference whatsoever. It may have more drive. What’s the placebo factor account for? 30 percent? Mike
not very clear and is very difficult to get a good pic of whats what
i think the most noticeable bit on the photo is from the leading edge of the fin to the rail
btw the new fins are double foiled
I noticed increased toe-in, I would have them re-set.
The old board also has a much better wave.
And a sweet resin tint.
hey, deadly,
that’s a great looking board. should go well at that point up there in north devon hey?
am moving to newcastle this august(brrr, jesus its cold up there!) and look forward to seeing the southwest. seen loads of great shots of waves there.
oh yeah, and you should get what you ordered. mistakes happen.