Glassing a fish with rice paper artwork

Hi guys,

I wanted to do a search for info before posting this, but doesn’t look like it’s working at the moment.

Next weekend I’ll be glassing my 3rd board (so yes, still very much a newbie), a fish for a friend of mine, with a rice paper print he’s already printed.

The print will cover pretty much the center of the board (length wise), and will cover almost the width of the board (with about 1/2" on each side of the board not covered).

I’ve glassed artwork before (cotton inlays), but not done rice paper print (of such dimensions) before.

Do you have any techniques for an optimal glass job result?

This is what I was planning to do, but I thought I’d check here first:

1: Glass the bottom as usual (free lap) + sand the lap.

2: Glass the deck with 1 layer (not lapped) and let cure + sand edge.

3: Place the print on the deck & add another layer of glass on top which gets free lapped too.

4: Continue from here as per usual - e.g. sand, hot coat etc etc.

I’m just fearful that, because rice paper is so thin, if there are any uneven bits on the sanded free lap, it might not be smooth enough for the rice paper print to lay nicely before glassing the next layer. 

Any tips?

Thanks guys.

 

Hi cayman -

First, make certain that the rice paper is the right stuff.  I've seen rice paper that was too thick to easily laminate on a surfboard.  I've also seen stuff that was too 'wrinkly.'  The right stuff is more like tissue paper and will turn transparent when wetted out with resin.  The best advice of course it to test a small piece of it on scrap foam.

Second, make certain that the inks or paints are not resin soluble.  Again, testing the specific colors used by the artist is your best course of action.

Third, trim your laps so they won't interfere with the rice paper laminate.  I wouldn't try to laminate the rice paper over fiberglass.  The texture of the weave will likely leave air spaces under the rice paper.  Fine sand your blank.  Pour resin on the blank and laminate the rice paper directly on the foam.  Depending on the porosity of the rice paper, it might  be difficult to get resin to penetrate through the painted rice paper.  Even with small logo-sized pieces of rice paper I pour the resin down first, then apply the paper, then lay the fiberglass on top - all in one shot, not multiple layers done separately.

Anyway, testing is always a good idea.  With a laminate of that size, you might waste a shaped blank if it doesn't work out.  I wish you luck with your results.

Me too.     You always give good advice, John.

Here’s a couple videos of a fabric inlay being glassed on, have to handle the rice paper differently as its gonna be more fragile, but it gives an idea of the process, anyway

[video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF7JYFEZ3UM]

[video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7aSrEgVzaA]

Found this video a couple of years ago.  May help give you a good idea about what you will need to do:

(I would advise against bare-handed exposure to resin though.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S849GbLb-zI

[video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S849GbLb-zI]

Nice technique that clearly illustrates how to do it but no gloves?  Styrene and MEKP contact and having to wash up in acetone maybe not such a good idea.  Too many glassers have become deathly ill from chemical exposure.

Also note around 9:40 that he appears to be babysitting in an effort to eliminate air bubbles.  Resin doesn't penetrate rice paper as easily as fiberglass cloth. 

Thanks very much to all, much appreciated. 

With a bit of luck will post pics to show what actually happened :slight_smile:

Regards.

Great video!  One thing I might add is when I use rice paper I seal the blank with a 80%resin / 20%styrene mix first to eliminate any chance of drainage. Takes the worry out for me.

this one is layered ricepaper 

 

here’s more of the same: http://cooperfishcalendar.com/blog/?tag=riceboard

 

Hey Gene, thanks for that. 

What’s the effect of “drainage” as you describe above - i.e. what effect does sealing the blank with resin mix have straight after shaping?

Lastly, if your rice paper print goes on the deck, do you still laminate the bottom first? If so, how do you make sure that the lapped cloth doesn’t interfere with the area of the board on the deck where you want to place the rice print?

Thanks again for the advice.

Regards. 

Hey Cayman,

 

Some good advice here.  Done a lot of these, one thing is to resin seal out the blank.  Mix a batch of lam resin

and add styrene to it, and squeegee it onto the open blank.  Styrene will help keep the layer thin.  Also be sure

to not have any drips, runs or sags/pileups of resin.  Once this resin gets tacky proceed with the lam paper,

again, another batch of  resin UNDER the paper, pretty wet, then more on top, and your cloth on top of

everything.  (Do not let the seal batch kick all the way to completion! Plan on continuing right through to the 

lamination stage.)

Work out the resin like a normal glass job.

The seal job reduces drainage beneath the cloth/paper.  (The blank will absorb resin and at times will leave a

gas void under your art!)  Another thing the sealing does is react with the subsequent batch of resin, it will kind

of glue the lam paper in place, and lock it down.

 

[img_assist|nid=1069932|title=Lam Paper Art Installation|desc=Display boards U.S. Open, full deck art laminations|link=none|align=left|width=480|height=640]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hope this helps,

George

Yes, what George said.  

And if f the rice paper is on the deck and into the rail area then you just do the deck and rails first.  It will only work over a totally smooth surface.

Great advice guys, thanks.

One last question, does the sealing batch need to be poly+MEKP+styrene, or could i just use a 2-part epoxy mix?

Thanks,

Gab

Is this a polyurethane blank, or eps?  Are you planning on glassing with epoxy resin?

Hi Bill - it’s a PU blank, was planning on glassing with a 2-part epoxy.

Regards.

Best to stick with whatever resin you’re going to use for all steps. Be aware that epoxy layers will need scuffing if there is more than 24 hour delay between coats. Also pay attention to minimum temperatures. Cold and humidity can apparently increase amine blush even when using non-blush epoxies.

I have glassed a dozen boards with epoxy, but I haven’t done exactly what you’re proposing to do.  Nevertheless, it seems to me if you’re going to seal the blank with epoxy resin, spreading with a foam weenie roller would allow you to evenly apply a very thin sealer coat.

(BTW, I’m not Bill, he just said something to me once, about using numbers to record a board’s shape, that I thought was worth repeating - so I used his quote as my tag line.)

I didn’t realize you were talking epoxy so most of my input doesn’t apply.  At least you’ll have a reasonable amount of working time

[quote="$1"]

[quote="$1"]

Hi Bill - it's a PU blank, was planning on glassing with a 2-part epoxy.

Regards.

[/quote]

I didn't realize you were talking epoxy so most of my input doesn't apply.  At least you'll have a reasonable amount of working time

[/quote]

 

John Mellor, Gene, PlusOneShaper......

Epoxy or poly.....I can never thank you guys enough for all of your help over the years....keep posting! Your input is valid and it does apply. Cayman needs to decide what resin he is going to use.......I pick up little bits of info from each thread

 

Ray

Thanks guys. I’ve used PE and Epoxy in the past but I’ve found eposy much easier to work with, so will glass that board with epoxy too.

Does sealing the blank not apply if I use epoxy? I’ve also found that sometimes, there are tiny areas in the ricepaper that turn into a yellowish tint on contact with the resin - any ideas why this is?

I concur with Ray’s comment, even though I’m still a newbie, I pick up bits and pieces of invaluable info from most threads.

Thanks again.

 

Hi Cayman,

Yes it does apply, just a little more critical on the timing and reading of what your epoxy is

doing.  Although epoxy does not “cross-link” the same as polyester resin does, you will

receive a benefit of “extending a batch” of epoxy, and this does kind of the same thing, 

sticking your artwork down and holding it, while also preventing gassing beneath the lam

paper.

What you want to look for with the epoxy (not knowing the exact brand or speed of epoxy,)

is when the seal batch “B-Stages.”  Though this is not like “gelling” of polyester resin where

an energy “hurdle” is lowered with a catalyst (thus, change of state, liquid-to-solid,) the 

epoxy resin begins to gain momentum in locating matching binding sites with the hardener.

This is when heat is given off.  Ideally, there is a perfect match in the number of resin sites

connecting with hardener sites.  On a thin sealing layer, heat transfer is hard to detect, BUT

if you have a mass of mixed epoxy, you can see/feel it as it gives off heat, and/or solidifies.

A trick to doing epoxy art lams is to seal with a coat of epoxy directly onto the blank, and have

a bit of epoxy left in your bucket.  Set the bucket aside so it is slightly TILTED (mixture will

be in a “mass” and will begin to B-stage sooner than the seal coat*.)  At that point you can

start to test the sealer surface for tack.  There will be a period where the surface of the

seal will be like sticky tape.  This only happens for a little while until the last remaining

open binding sites are made. (Note: Polyester Lam resin stays sticky after “drying” because

of exposure to oxygen in the atmosphere, which prevents catalysis from changing the state

of the resin.  Epoxy, has a 1-to-1 match so eventually this stickiness will go away when

“dry.”)  While still “sticky,” pour yet another small batch of epoxy, this time pretty wet, and

lay down the art, with this new batch.  At this point I’ve found two options available.  One

is to wait until the new batch B-stages, then pull cloth, and lam with still another batch.  The

other way is to not wait, and glass right on top of the wet artwork.

In both cases you will notice the artwork will stay stuck down pretty well, maybe even 

conforming to the deck crown a little (but not as much as with polyester.)  I’d say the first

option will allow you to stick around rails a LITTLE BIT, compared to going through to

glassing right away.

In either case I would NOT recommend allowing batches to fully cure and WALKING AWAY.

Little tits and trash will form and harden as well as “epoxy curdles” which all interfere with

getting a good smooth lamination with your glass.  It is usually not a good idea to sand off

the trash, as you could burn into the artwork (which makes for much sadness.)

I think the key will be to STAY WITH THE BOARD AND NURSE IT.  Keep applying batches

until you get the glass onto the board to further capture the artwork.

 

[img_assist|nid=1070006|title=Epoxy and Digital Artwork Application|desc=Epoxy application of digital artwork fabric onto sealed blank prior to lamination with glass.|link=none|align=left|width=478|height=640]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looking closely you will see that the orange color is really digitally printed onto fabric

that is laid on top of the blank that was sealed as described.  The darker orange rail

is actually masking tape/paper.  The art fabric was trimmed during B-stage.  Note

also the white-edged portion of the fabric to save on ink costs.  I leave this on to

save time and also act as a “handle” to pull the art tighter.  Notice too the orange

bleeding- a tough color in this medium.  This Wine SUP was glassed about 20 minutes

after this picture was taken.

 

Hope this helps,

George

 

 

 

*the secret here would be to not have too much epoxy mass in the bucket,

as it will nuke on you and not be an accurate reading, maybe about 1/8"

to 1/4" deep, max.