I have been building a 6ft fish using the paul jenson method, all has gone well just the rails left to do and its ready for glassing, trouble is i have no experiance of this. I will be using epoxy and 4oz cloth which i have already used on the underside of the decks. Could anyone give me any tips on how to get a nice neat job, also i will be using lokbox fin boxs should i fit these before or after the cloth. I will try to post some pictures let me know what you think.
Wood Ogre:
Like you I'm also a woodworker and make wooden fins and surfboards when I have the time. All my wood working equipement is in my friends very large cabinet shop (Guitar Sander, Laguna Bandsaw HD16, 12" Jointer, 15" Planner, A couple of Delta-Uni Saws and a 14" European Rip Saw, Shapers, and so on) 1 mile from my board factory. My rent is 2 free custom boards a year that I gladly provide and we share all our tools. Plus I get to continue to learn so much from him. He builds High End Homes in Newport Beach and makes all his Cabinets, doors and windows. The painter comes by and picks up the creations each week to be painted or stained and seals them with Zinsser like you say. I didn't mean to come off so cocky. It was more tognue n' cheek! I just use Polyester and it works well for me. I did use conversion varnish for some $300 Skateboard decks before the state of California outlawed it. (VOC's). I make my own French Polish and use it on furniture that I build for my home. I want to make a wall hanger with all exotic wood from Africa and do a French Polish with Tung Oil. I will do inlay instead of lams. I beieve you are in Kaui? Do you work with Curly Koa? I have always dream of making something beautiful from it. It's pretty hard to get in California.
Cheer,
SD
LokBox gets installed before the board is laminated.
Please click the link that Swanny posted. I have my methods but I'm learning all the time.....lot's of good input on that thread......
Over the weekend I glassed a 2# EPS blank with Beechwood skins. I'm happy with the glass job but the board is much heavier that I had planned. Wood likes to suck in resin....I'm not a wood guy so you might want to get some answers from the wood builders......When I do tail blocks I seal the wood with epoxy resin....wait over night...sand the block...and then glass on the tail block....
Today I have 503 points.......I'm not here for the points......Share the stoke!!!!
Where's Chipfins61?.....We need you brother....keep posting!!!!!!
Ray
Thanks for the link Swanny, very helpfull. Also Ray do you think sealing the wood with a coat of resin before i glass would help.
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Thanks for the link Swanny, very helpfull. Also Ray do you think sealing the wood with a coat of resin before i glass would help.
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In order to reduce weight try thinning out your epoxy (seal coat only). You can thin epoxy by adding 25% denatured alcohol. Note: don't try to use one of those little pink mini paint rollers from HD to spread your sealer coat on the board. Epoxy melts the plastic on the handle. Don't ask me how I know that.
Edit: I got the 25% DNA trick from Paul Jensens CD.
Another tip is to heat up your board before your apply the seal coat. Remove the heat source before you apply the epoxy. The theory is that the cooling board will suck the resin further into the fibers.
Note: I'm just repeating tips that I have heard from others here on Swaylock's. I have done a ton of reading on this subject, but haven't been able to really get a good glass job on a wooden board. My boards have all had lots of bubbles and imperfections. My advice is to save yourself the grief that I have endured by practicing on some scrap wood before doing anything to your board.
I also did a board through the Paul Jenson Method. I glassed as normal, and it has worked out fine so far. My board might be a little bit heavier than those who sealed, but its still a heavy wooden surfboard, soooo…btw, I have surfed it for a year, and it hasn’t had any problems so far…I believe it also depends on what type of wood you used. Some woods have an outgassing problem that will cause your board to Delam… I believe softer woods are the ones that outgass???
I have done 2 veneer deck boards now. One with beech and mahogany, and one with beech and walnut.
It does seem that the softer wood gives more problems with air bubbles. I had very few bubbles on the beech, but the walnut and mahogany gave problems. Next time I am going to try sealing the wood with thinned epoxy and sand before the 4oz glass coat. I have spent ages cutting out the areas where the glass has lifted, and spot filling with epoxy using a cocktail stick. Then another age sanding down the epoxy spots. End result is worth it tho.
After repair:
Before Repair: Note bubbles on right hand side of deck.
I glass my Balsa (Softwood) Wood boards in Polyester and never get outgassing? Plus I like the clear look over wood. Outgassing wood? That's new to me! I will have to do some research on that one?
John: (Tailblocks)
As far as tail blocks I just paste them up to soak the wood then glass right over them. As long as the wood is saturated they come out fine. To coat them in epoxy then sand the next day sound like an extra step? Maybe I'm missing something?
SD
Think i will use a thinned out seal coat. I know this is more work but i am not doing this for profit the board is fo myself, just seams less chance of getting bubbles, also will be using additive f hopefully this will help, dont know wheather i should put it in the sealier coat or not though.
Depends on what kind of wood you are useing as to how you finish it. Mahogany, walnut, balsa are open pore woods,beech is a closed pore wood. Any open poor wood can cause a problem with air bubbles under a finish. Although thinning epoxy and useing it as a sealer is used by some there are no epoxy companies that would recomend thinning there product 25% withDNA. Two problems here- thinning epoxy weaken the epoxy, and a lot of epoxy is absorbed into the wood creating extra unwanted weight. What to do. As a cabinet and furniture maker I sand the wood to180 or 200 then spray on 2 coats of Zinsser SealCoat, (if you are brushing ,1coat) no sanding. Then role on on coat of epoxy resin , let it sit for a while and then squige off the excess there should be no shinny spots. Aftere the resin has kicked and dry enough to touch you can lay down your glass cloth and wet it out with resin. Ahiu Hou Wood_Ogre
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Depends on what kind of wood you are useing as to how you finish it. Mahogany, walnut, balsa are open pore woods,beech is a closed pore wood. Any open poor wood can cause a problem with air bubbles under a finish. Although thinning epoxy and useing it as a sealer is used by some there are no epoxy companies that would recomend thinning there product 25% withDNA. Two problems here- thinning epoxy weaken the epoxy, and a lot of epoxy is absorbed into the wood creating extra unwanted weight. What to do. As a cabinet and furniture maker I sand the wood to180 or 200 then spray on 2 coats of Zinsser SealCoat, (if you are brushing ,1coat) no sanding. Then role on on coat of epoxy resin , let it sit for a while and then squige off the excess there should be no shinny spots. Aftere the resin has kicked and dry enough to touch you can lay down your glass cloth and wet it out with resin. Ahiu Hou Wood_Ogre
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I tried brushing on Zinsser no wax seal coat, and got a lot of ugly blotches on my redwood board. It was a new can, so I don't think that it was spoiled. I then glassed right on top of the Zinsser seal coat, and got a lot of little bubbles in the resin. You mentioned that you added an additional epoxy seal coat over the Zinser? Why is that?
I made the mistake of sanding Zinsser Sealcoat over Balsa prior to glassing. Very blotchy.
Yeah, I sanded the Zinsser too. Maybe that was my downfall. I thought I had read everything, but I guess I missed that part.
After my glassing fiasco with the redwood board, I ended up stripping the whole mess off and started over. With a little bit of sanding I was able to flip up a corner of the glass big enough to grip with my fingers. I gave it a yank, and a big long sheet of glass ripped off revealing the wood below. I think that coating the board with the Zinsser may have inhibited the epoxy from bonding with the wood. This time I'm going with the technique of heating the board, removing the heat source, and spreading thinned out epoxy as a seal coat. I already did the bottom, and it turned out pretty good. Some people say to thin with DNA and other don't. I respect what WoodOgre has to say, but I also respect Paul Jensen's advise. I guess the only way for me to find out at this point is to just try it. I made sure that I mixed it really well, and I added some Additive F.
I found that I can definetly save weight by sealing first. I dont thin or add any additive F. Just a few oz. of epoxy will go a long way with a squeege. I really dont want the glue to soak in to far. Just enough to seal the surface. So the wood is no longer a sponge. I only sand anything that will catch glass, like raized grain or crud. If you glass soon after sealing you dont need to sand to make it stick. So no add.F. That stuff is great for heavy sanding only. A thin coat(of unthined epoxy) will not hold bubbles or air and if it is a little stiff it wont soak in to far. When I have thined my seal coats I used more oz of epoxy then unthined. Im not trying to turn my wood into plastic. just trying to get a good surface to glass on. With less chance of outgasing or dry spots from the wood absorbing the epoxy unevenley. Mike
Zinsser SealCoat??????????????
Wow! Dale Velzy must be rolling in his grave? (Wooden Velzy Fin Template Attached) Sorry I use Polyester resin! No Zinner SEal Coat.
Wipe the board with polyester resin. Then lay your cloth when the wood is wet. Glass as usual. It's really not that hard?
Why is it so hard for some people to get it?
Now go and do the right thing!
SD
Good stuff Surfding.....You put a big smile on my face!!!
......what if........
We could modify that fin and move it forward and make it more upright , maybe refoil it and make its so it fits a fin system and then run it through my new rock crusher and seal the deal with floor finish !!!!!! Me and you could become partners...We'll call it StingDing!
Oh my.....too much fun.....
Ray
Yes sanding through the Seal Cell will cause blotching. And I have not brushed shellac in over 30 years ( it drys to fast). Seal Cell is nothing more than dewaxed shellac. I used to make my own back before zinsser got there act together on the shellac. Once upon a time canned shellac wasn't worth a shit. When you spray shellac it will not fill the pores of the wood but coats the wood fibers. So the surface layer of wood is still open thus the air bubbles, thats why I put down the coat of epoxy resin that fills the cells. Think furniture finishing here (like filling wood pores with past filler) . Something else to think about - is your epoxy resin formulated for use on wood or what. I have tried a couple 2 to 1 epoxy and did not get good results. I have been useing West systems because it is formulated for wood. But I will continue to experiment with the 2 to 1 epoxy as they are generally easier to work with. I do like the way polyester resin looks over wood and have used it on a couple wall hangers, but it dose not take impact well. So for hard use working boards the epoxy is more durable. Dale Velzy was making board during a transition period from wood to foam. He would have had a working knowlege of shellac. I have restored a couple Blake stile hallow surfboards for the Museum. They were in bad shape and the original finish was waxed shellac. The problem in wood finishing now days is that the formulas change so fast (thanks to the EPA) that it is very difficult to keep up with the best finishes, A good product today may be crap a year from now. Polyester resins have been on the EPAs hit list for some time now , I wonder how many more years it will be around? surfding , I love that fin !!! Ahui Hou - Wood_Ogre
I getting off topic here and sorry to Hi-Jack.
I make all kinds of different fins when I have the time. Here's a Dora Da Cat Copy I made (unauthorized) Copied from a Old Surfer from the sixities and copied the fin and blew it up. Pro-Box Larry foilded it for me. I have some fin panels I made up and have an endless supply of wood. Let's make a Stingding fin of some kind. It's all about making stuff!!
SD
