so im dreaming up methods and am thinking of deck and bottom inserts with clear rails.(for easier acid splash attempts). 4oz inserts and 6oz deck/4oz bottom laps. the first clear will go over the first insert making the 2nd insert easier… i think…
so i guess the question is should i do the deck or bottom insert first?
imo we all should be concentrating on longer lasting boards. in times only just gone by id be thinking of my shape as rubbish before its first surf because of the high snapping to surf ratio…i like the heavy stuff…
am i rambling? im new here so im not sure of the best way to post…
If you’re serious about longer-lasting boards your first step should be switching to epoxy resin.
That allows you to get into EPS foam, which will allow you to use more glass for the same or less net weight.
Then looks at using a vacuum bag instead of hand-lamming.
After that, look at throwing in composite skins into the mix (wood, cork, high density foams, etc.)
If you’re set on using PU/PE, then you’re seriously limited on ways to increase durability. Basically your options are denser blanks or more glass, both of which have the downside of more weight.
Going to EPS/epoxy really opens up a world of possibilities.
I was like you and went as far as I could making my poly boards more
durable. There is a point of diminishing returns where you’re basically
doing dense blanks, 6/6/6 glass with gloss coat, then you’ve got a
really durable poly board, but it’s heavy and costs more than what an
epoxy board does.
The stringerless EPS/cork deck board below replaces a Bamboo deck one that I rode the shit out of for 2 years then sold for 2/3 the price I paid new. I’ve been riding epoxy boards for 7+ years and have been amazed at the durability over Poly boards.
The pic of the 3 boards is my progression of construction methods over the course of 3 years. Far left is poly Biofoam blank with 6/6/6 glass, middle one is stringered EPS with 6/6/6 epoxy glassjob, far right is stringerless EPS with bamboo deck skin and carbon rails. That was basically my progression and I’m super stoked with where I’m at now. My boards now routinely last 2+ years with heavy abuse and they weigh right around 5 pounds.
This might not be where you want to go right now, but just something to get your mind thinking about some options that are out there that you may not have considered.
Actually. eliminating laps by doing inserts is going to reduce break strength considerably. If you want more break strength you would do well to increase the depth of the laps and certainly not eliminate them…
No matter how strong you make them, be at the wrong place at the wrong time and your board is broken. Ask me how I know-
yeah i have been contemplating different materials, construction methods. keen to get some epoxy going but am a little spooked about shaping that bubbly stuff.
i have seen the possibility of using epoxy on normal blanks just the cost here is crazy…i couldnt quote the price i just remember having to clench as i heard it!
my post was in two parts. the 2nd was more about bringing attention to my color problem with dyes and auto paint pigment im about to try my luck in the next day or two.
nows the time to possibly save an otherwise good board guys!!!
ive never seen any talk of double bottom layers… surely 4/4/4/6 could be a goer?
yep, ive seen all the different boards break llilibel… terrible when its a keeper, or for the buyer, cost over a grand or so of hard earned…i know as well as anyone that boards break…its the main reason im making my own. it was costing me the earth buying new boards (even 2nd hand ones) every few months. even days when the waves are good and luck is against you my local is a sandy slab. i see boards snap on foamy sections and not under 3’ thick lips!
standard glassing is 6, 4 deck and 6 bottom. Strength will be dependent on how well you can glass also, “a poor craftsman blames his tool” cliche applies. Do not do color yet. The addition of pigment will make for a weaker glasss job, plus you will be worried about color and NOT the quality of your lamination.
Lillibel- was that the Hickory veneer board? Whats, the core? Stringered?
"Strength" is difficult to quantify... does it mean breakage resistance, dent resistance, penetration resistance? A couple of excellent threads on these topics are readily available. Check "Core and skin" and "Test results of 13 different constructions" by Benjamin Thompson and George Gall.
Search terms to use might include lamination, compsand, etc. There really is a lot of information on this sort of thing.
It is generally accepted that multiple light layers are superior to single heavy layers.
Based on Benjamin Thompson's chart, I used double 4 oz fiberglass tugged at opposite corners for each layer and criss-crossed to approximate a bias weave on the bottom of my longboard. I used epoxy resin over a US Blanks foam core. It seems really strong to my unofficial thumb tests and I'm quite sure that there is at least some fiber present where there would be none with a standard single layer - as in between the weave. With that in mind, I am confident that the board is more resistant to penetrating damage from anything sharp. NOT damage proof by any means... just better than a single layer.
The idea of light core and heavy skin is valid but in my opinion so is the lighter skin over a heavier core. As stated by Michael Ward (Surfding), the end result is a combination of core and skin.
The best thing to do is to get over any idea that a professional 'contest weight' board is a valid objective. For average users in average conditions, it's a disposable joke.
cool double layer john!
hahahah cheers for the input and im onto all that different definitions of strength jive. just had the idea of double bottom and wanted to ask. im the kinda guy who believes theres no such thing as a stupid question. and that being wrong should be a blessing. as when you know your wrong yourve learned something new.
round about way to say im no resin kook. i should have named myself ‘‘colorkook’’ as thats why i joined to ask the specific question can i use auto paint pigments!!!??? why why not?
hahaha repeated myself 10 times now hoping for a straight answer
ive thrown color into my glass jobs years ago for fun before i heard the terms acid splash or swaylocks…the board im about to glass is for a paying customer who will want me to experiment regardless the problem im sure you understand is i dont want to sell an inferior product. for me well up untill my last magic board broke i never cared too much as board were a temp thing already designing the next before glassing the current. boards snap and when you focus on getting the heaviest wave you can albeit under 6’ small wave could actually snap more boards…
Snap occure by local buckling of fiberglass skin. Buckling result of destabilization of compress skin, it delaminate from foam and flex. To increase buckling resistance, make a stiff structure: stiffer (denser) foam, stringers, bigger laps and other rails reinforcement. Increase skin bond to foam. Dent is a sensible place for delam and buckling, reduce dent with stiffer skin.
In fact stiffer skin is the best way (strengh by weight) use in all sandwich composits industry. Compsand, timberflex, polymer fiber bulker, etc, are based on stiffening skins. Many way to stiffen skin, one standard way in indsutry (carbon -nida- carbon) give ultra light ultra stiff but with low elongation capaibilty. For surfboards you need a skin that can elongate to spread energy of impact, and because you want some flex.
In your case a simple way to increase snap resistance is to increase bond of skin on stringer : make 2 grooves along stringer filled with resin+microballon. Add a 4oz twist +/- 45° deck patch under feet between 2 full layers of 4oz warpglass to spread load and reduce dent depth. Use 2x4oz on bottom with stagered laps, warpglass.
If you don’t care of weight and want a stronger board: 4ozwarp-6oz xglass-4ozwarp on deck, 6oz xglass-4ozwarp on bottom. I do it on 1.5lb stringerless eps core with epoxy resin for standard PU/PE weight shortboards. Those boards seems really strong.
Hi John. I beg to differ. Remember CJ’s innegra boards at Plaskett? Super light (as light as a 4-4 and 4 disposable pupe) and strong. I gave them the thumb test- rock solid. He’d only been surfing them a short while but they had no dents and CJ is a big guy. He told me, “We’ll have to see how well the hold up to large surf this winter…how snap proof they are…” I wonder if Cj is lurking and could give us an update…
ps Pico, that was a hickory board. It was 1.5 eps core- deck- 2oz under 4oz over veneer skin, bottom veneer skin and 4oz over, 3/8’ balsa rails. I just tried to duck dive a wave I would have been better off bailing. The lip hit me so hard I thought I was going to be injured. I was so glad that I came up without a broken, torn or lacerated body that it mitigated the loss of the board…
he may have been talking to me as im using standard materials.
i for one know how light some of these new(ish) contraptions are. im
just a bit too scared to experiment with the $s needed for these things.
how cheap can you get them costing if i may ask? time isnt an issue for
me… though materials are…for that reason it wont happen for a few
years till i relocate.
the board im on now has been creased 5 times and had the whole tail pad
area replaced(>1’ deep) after a water logging indecent now its heavy
but still goes good, just not in the smaller stuff.
in shoulder high tubes minimum or bigger fat waves it still goes
great! thats why im thinking of adding an extra 4 to the bottom of my
next. well ive decided i will…
before this board i was happy with throwing boards away as it meant i could make a newy! yewww!! hahaha ive seen the error of my ways in the past year or two watching the zietgiest films and seeing what is right infront of my face. shameful industry.
you tiped me over the edge stevo!
i recon i could find some veneer somewhere here and my shape im sold on has a super flat deck.
it couldnt be too hard to counter sink could it? even 2’’ from the outline ending before the tail and short of the nose for min extra weight? this idea viabe? pontless? is a vacum unavoidable?
I use www.certainlywood.com. They are the only online supplier I’ve found that has an extensive inventory and has photos of the actual flitches you will be purchasing (not just generic species photos).
Great tip I got on Sways was to not bother about countersinking, but use a wallpaper edge roller to crush the veneer into the deck. You can cut the lap at the veneer edge, so you don’t have to push the veneer into the deck by much.
That sounds more like a sales pitch. Start using epoxy resin, then get into EPS, then vacuum bagging… like llilibel03 said, no matter how strong you make them, wrong place and wrong time equals broken board. However epoxy on PU instead of polyester on PU and longer laps can help make a PU board more break resistant.
