good shapers and good boards.

General Discussion
1
What makes a good shaper and a good board?
 
When I was young, I bought a board from an in-experienced Texas surfboard blank sculptor with intials JAM. I showed the board to my friend Rob. Rob laughed at the board, calling it a piece of shit. JAM had told me the bottom of the board had a double concave. Rob felt the alleged double concave and said it wasn’t a double concave, rather it was the shapers inability to effectively bring the stringer down to the foam. I didn’t care. I rode the board anyway. It was an o.k. board. 
 
These days all kinds of humans are using various devices to sculpt surfboard blanks for wave riding.
 
I understand some consumers value the capacity for a shaper to consistently reproduce a shape accurately. Don’t robots do that?
 
A community saturated with social media provides the opportunity for one human to purchase a surfboard made by an inexperienced surfboard blank sculptor for practically the same price as another human purchasing a surfboard made by a very experienced shaper. Both boards were entirely built by one person, out of the same materials.  Both surfboards are throughly enjoyed by their riders. Doesn’t this imply a lack of correlation between shaping experience to cost and shaping experience to enjoyment?
 
This raises the issue: what is a good board? If I ride a board and enjoy the feeling it provided me, then doesn’t that qualify it as a “good” board? It sure as hell does in my book. So…when a surfboard blank sculptor sculpts a surfboard blank, and I like the way it surfs, a good board has been built. 
 
A shaper is good when they shape good boards. A good board is subjective. So…the very idea of a good shaper becomes subjective.
 
When carnival freaks like Ryan Burch can surf masterfully (this, by the way, is an objective observation) on any piece of flotsam, one has to accept the idea of some one telling YOU what a “good board” or a “good shaper” is as the marketing gimmick it is.
 
If a shaper can shape a board whose rails are symmetrical and whose curves flow well, then is the shaper considered good?
 
Speaking of symmetry , a recent example of the good board / good shaper marketing gimmick is the hysterical trend in asymmetry. I like to think a man with a big hat ( or funny glasses) mixed up the template of a board way back when. At the time, he didn’t notice his mistake. The board was built, and delivered to a team rider. The team rider pointed out the asymmetrical accident to the man in the big hat / funny glasses.  In an effort to avoid reshaping a board, the man in the big hat / funny glasses claimed it was built like that to make turning backside easier. The team rider rode the board and decided (like I did with my JAM board) this board with the messed up template was an o.k. board. However, the team rider asked that his next board be built with a symmetrical template. So back in the day, the asymmetrical trend never caught traction.
 
This theory could be true. If one reads the book that discusses (among other things) the practices of surf shops of yore: Velzy is Hawk, one could understand a shaper making false claims. How does this theory have anything to do with the proliferation of asymmetrical surfboards today? Easy. Surfboard brands need gimmicks to be competitive in our saturated surfboard market. A gimmick that can appear to have historical significance… BAM! consumers LOVE that shit.
 
Regarding historical significance and surfboard trends, I’ve already demonstrated the marketing shennanigans surrounding math's contribution to the “goodness” of a board. A rider’s skill level and their particular desires are the root of the subjective nature of evaluating surfboards.
 
I’m not hating on board builders for peddling their products with gimmicks. At the end of the day, if a consumer enjoys that product , then the board builder made a good product for that consumer. I am however calling out the marketing gimmicks that fuel many high output commercial participants in the surfboard industry. All the words in the dictionary won’t make asymmetrical boards better or worse than symmetrical boards, or thrusters better or worse than single fins. Moreover, paying to attend a surfboard manufacturers convention doesn’t guarantee the consumer they will find a good board or a good shaper.
 
A board can not be valued prior to riding it. So,  the valuation of a surfboard is only relevant to its rider. Thus, a public proclamation of a board’s functionality becomes absurd. However, if a rider is so fucking hyped on their experience on a particular design that they feel an obligation to start a blog and a social media account devoted to said design, one mustn’t see fault with that.. (clearing throat) Wink Wink Nod Nod.
 

 

It is an amazing experience to find some old forgotten relic of a surfboard shaped by some anonymous person and have it work for you. It is a glorious experience to go to a craftsman and have them listen to you and deliver a highly functional wave riding platform. May we all find our good boards and our good shapers and experience radiant joy on beautiful waves!
2

The bottom line for a good board is the ability to catch waves and have fun (turning included). I normally build boards for older fatter guys like myself.  Nothing too fancy, but my niche riders like my boards because they can catch waves and have fun.  If it works, great.  In the same breath, you must always be willing to try new and different concepts/shapes and boards to find something that might work a little better.  A few of my boards are 20+ years old that I still enjoy riding.  I prefer the fun-functionality over the latest and greatest hype designs.

Good sharpers and good boards are based on the fun-factor scale that each surfer must experience for themselves and not told by slick marketing.

My two cents.

3

You kinda cover a lot of ground, and make some interesting observations.  I think that an inexperienced shaper can make a good board, but he’s gotta rely on information that the experienced shaper has earned, if that makes sense.  When I started making quads, I didn’t have a clue where to put them, toe in, cant angle, etc. etc.  An experienced shaper has tried the possibilities, and knows a lot more about what works best for who, where, and why.  The inexperienced shaper has to look at what the more experienced shapers do, and take notes.

However, experienced shapers don’t have grounds to look down on the less experienced shapers for copying some of what they do, because they all copy each other.  At a recent shaper’s round table discussion, it came out that several of the shapers there were riding each other’s boards.  At shaping competitions, the judging is often based on the shapers’ ability to copy another shaper’s board.  They all study what each other does, and they all copy those features that they see in other’s boards and want to try.

In the end, information is not proprietary, information is just information, and we all have to tap into it, and we all have to rely on the work of others that have gone before us.  That’s why it doesn’t bother me to say Hey where are you putting your quad fins, etc.  Usually I don’t get many replies, but I figure it doesn’t hurt to ask, and if no one answers I just study what’s available to me: pictures on the internet, information on the internet, surfboards I see at the beach, surfboards I can look at in a surf shop, etc.

Hype is what sells, gimmicks as you say, trends, fashions, “buzz”, etc etc.  Smoke and mirrors.  That’s ingrained in our society and in our culture.  As long as people are making money selling surfboards, hype will be with us.

As far as asymmetricals, the rationale is obvious: we don’t stand in a symmetrical stance and travel along a symmetrical path.  You can call it a gimmick, but the rationale is sound.  I don’t ride asymmetricals, but I don’t consider them a gimmick, and I don’t consider Ryan Burch a circus freak, I just consider him a real talented surfer with a curious mind and a thirst to explore possibilities.

A friend recently approached me to shape her a fish.  I gave her a ridiculously high price, and told her I can’t compete with professionals, I don’t get my materials at the same price, and I gotta charge for my time and I’m not production mode fast.  I told her check out Craigslist.  She found one on craigslist by an unknown backyard shaper, excellent condition, nearly new, she paid $140.  I saw it, its beautiful.  She loves the way it surfs, she flies on that thing.  I told her if she paid me the big bucks I quoted, my board wouldn’t be any better than her $140 find.  If it had a “name” logo on it, I doubt she would have gotten it for $140.  Just the way it is.

I shape my own boards, and I love them.  I don’t post much about them anymore, because I was told that everyone was sick of seeing them and hearing about them.  In fact, I really don’t even participate in the forum much anymore.  But my boards are good boards in my opinion, because they are specially designed for me, and I have special needs, being in the “over 60” crowd, and surfing crowded, competitive spots with lots of young aggressive guys.  Not too many “off the rack” boards I have tried have worked anywhere near as well as my own self shaped boards, but each one I’ve made borrows something from experienced shapers.

BTW, I upvoted you a point, you need 10 to reply in a thread.  Otherwise you have to start a new thread, or edit your first post, to say something in reply.  A few more votes and you’re there.  (if anyone else is reading this, hint hint.)

4

what…I think I found your point

 

Surfboard brands need gimmicks to be competitive in our saturated surfboard market. A gimmick that can appear to have historical significance… BAM! consumers LOVE that shit.

‘Have fun-Forget the hype’ - Right?

 

… Love the passion BTW :slight_smile:

 

5

There a Parmenterism in there somewhere.  I know it.   Good on you and right on concerning funny hats and goofy glasses.  Lowel

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One of the things I get to do working at SHACC is schlepping boards for Steve Wilkings who takes top, bottom and on edge photos of just about every board that come thru’ the door. You would be surprised at how many boards shaped by famous, well known/respected shapers have something not quite right about them. Crooked fins, lopsided rails, all kinds of wonkiness that in most cases obviously didn’t stop them from being ridden.

Anything works. 

Regarding the asyms: When the big hatted guy goes as far as patenting a design, it’s probably not an accident.

 

7

as I was a gremmie moving through the maze of learning to be a board builder and shaper I looked to the surfer / shaper / competitive surfers of the era.

Phil Edwards, Dewey, Donald, Skip, Hynson, etc., the combination being that they were great surfers, rode their own shapes and were finalists in surfing competitions, a seeminly great combination to look to. They put their money where their mouth was, walked it the way they talked it.

This is how I modeled my approach to the path of where I am today, but I see many shapers that no longer surf or have less than average ability in the water, also I try my best to educate the buying public on what is good shaping and what is just turning a blank white.

How do you determine how a particular design works if you cannot push it to it’s limits? I often hear, he’s not a really good shaper craftsman, but a good designer, how do you extract a working model of a design if you barely have control over your tools ?

There is a reason the gene pool is lopsided with only a very small portion of the great surfer, shaper, craftsmen occupying the top tier, time and experience. I read constantly on all the forums and all too often the question, reply is, my shaper is a life guard at Salt Creek ( insert occupation or place here ) if you are that good why are they not working full time

8

…many points to debate about, but now is irrelevant due to the main shaper is the machine…
There you have: the brand big names that do not shape boards from long time ago; the circuit guys shapers that in the start worked couple of seasons in a factory as sanders or like that but finally they were friends with a top pro circuit rider…, and now in growing numbers, these new hipsters that try to sell their small brands (cloth mainly) relying on the social media and coolness factor.
Yes, a % of these guys handshape the blanks then pay the best glass shop available so the boards looks pristine; yes, lots of not so fluid shapes with excellent glass work…and the intended shaper pass as a great shaper…big in Japan.
Works for many due the coolness factor, the Californian life style that is a strong brand to sell to the world (check the euro and aussie copy cats; even they stand up identical for the photos!), the social media and of course be in the right place with the right contacts. Also big in Japan where a surfboard is very expensive.
Then you have and had surfers like R Burch etc that are really good due to their life is just surfing all over the world; I am typing this and they are surfing solid waves in some part over and over so when some rides a few dozens of so so waves on a long expand they surfed hundreds or thousands of real waves everywhere; then they start to mow foam and no doubt that no matter what they shape it would be treated as holy word. I mean, the basics of the hydro dynamics do not change so the only way that a new design could appear is changing the materials and techniques; still we do not have any new materials except these plastic fibers but seems not so incredible for the surfboards, yet.
-Then you have the quality, in the work in the finishes etc. but in most cases, the shaper does not build all the board so the quality enter for the glass work did by others.

9

“What makes a good shaper and a good board?”

Two different questions really…

A good shaper is a craftsman that can follow the plan as designed.  I.E. if the design calls for 6’ of length, 2.75" of tail rocker, etc., etc., does the final shape match the specs?  A decent pattern maker from any number of industries will likely have the skills to meet design specs better than many renowned shapers.  I would say any of them are potentially good shapers.  They do not have to live near the ocean or even surf to create a shape that matches the specs of a design within a given tolerance.

If working in a production setting, being able to accomplish all of the above in a timely fashion will separate the men/women from the boys/girls.

The designer might be the same or a different person. The owner of a specific brand might be the designer and have a crew of shapers but none of them will last long if they aren’t hitting their marks.  Obviously the design must be sound or it is unlikely it will work to an optimum degree under the feet of it’s rider.  Ideally the design will ‘fit’ the rider. 

The materials and methods used in the construction of the board will undoubtedly play a part in the final product and help determine if it is a “good” board. The variables are too complex to cover here but the overall result for a good board allows the design to be created in a durable fashion and within acceptable weight limits. For many people aesthetics will play a part as well… the right graphics, the right color scheme, a nice glossy finish and the size, shape and placement of the logo(s) are key.

How a board rides might even be a consideration in the evaluation process…  How does it paddle?  Does it catch waves easily?  Top turn?  Bottom turn? Trim/Glide? Hold in the tube and still allow a ripping cutback?  Get air?  -  The ‘ride’ criteria can be endless and must take in to account the type of board, the waves being ridden, and the rider’s abilities.

To consistently build (from design through final product) even a decent, much less ‘good’ board takes a fair amount of skill. A customer who takes a new board out in absolute crap conditions and has a terrible time of it might find it easy to blame the builder who many times is simply following the instructions on the order blank. A ‘good’ board in such a case can be a shitty board due to the conditions in which it is being ridden.  Conversely, a truly shitty board could give a surfer the ride of his life it he simply manages to luck in to the wave of the day, make the drop and kick out at the end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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John--  you can do all of the above and then someone will comment that the finished board is "too thick, too thin or too wide etc. el.  I once shaped a few six foot round thumb tails for the owner of a shop on Maui.  The exact dimensions were given to me by the owners son.  Though I hit ALL of his marks dimension wise;  he complained that they were “too thick”.  Lowel

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make boards for fun, or, suck it up sunshine :slight_smile:

 

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Perhaps the answer is in the question.  Good shapers make good boards.  Great shapers make great boards. Shitty shapers make shitty boards.  Just say’n. Mike

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It’s a great question to ask gnar gnar and one that i find asking myself quite often. I have been building boards for about 8 years now and have really picked up business over the past 2 years. It’s a part time gig for me but something i am completely passionate about. For me when I started I wanted to make the best possible boards that I could. Over the years I have learned alot about building boards and am always on the quest for more knowledge. The question I always ask myself when building a board for someone is what could they get for the same $$$. I believe that you have to pay your dues in this industry & I try to be as humble as I can throughout this journey. I don’t shape boards that I haven’t ridden myself and worked through. I agree with Jim that you have to be a good surfer in order to make a good board, otherwise how can you tell what’s working and what’s not. You have to be your own team rider & develop boards around what is going to work for you. Never let the customer be the guinea pig.  

With Social Media these days it’s very easy for someone starting out to get exposure. Everytime I log onto Facebook or Instagram I come across someone new trying to start a “surfboard brand”. Each post is littered with b.s. about how their boards are superior to big companies & how they make boards designed for surfers in their area. To me if you have t-shirts, stickers, & a website before you really start shaping boards then you are doing it wrong. I can’t imagine the frustration that some of the older shapers must feel seeing all the daily b.s. being put out there. My goal is to build board that other shapers can appreciate because they are the ones that truly understand what goes into making each and every board. 

Anyways to me a good shaper is someone that can make a good surfboard both in quality & performance. 

14

At 20-25 mph, can a good/great surfer detect a 5% reduction in drag on a well shaped board?

Hype comes in many forms…

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maybe after 60 waves in slaters wave pool, and your Mick Fanning

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I knew the guy in the big hat with funny glasses really well shared a shop with him for a while. I never saw anybody obsess over details like he did. Perfect was PERFECT no matter how long it took…All my early mentors could surf and all were pretty good riding their own shapes. I get guys now who want to learn from me first thing I do is say lets go fo a surf…Most can barely catch a wave on there own boards…Cant help em…It happens in the water or it just looks cool in the parking lot take your pick. PT Barnham said it well. To many ln the industry followed that path to success…

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A good board does two things.  Goes where the rider’s mind wants it to go without the rider forcing it to go there.  Second it holds up and doesn’t fall apart.

 

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GnarGnar…I don’t understand the question…or is it just a fantasy…

…perfect wave, perfect board on a perfect day…no hype…

I build a 7-4 speed egg from a 7-7A blank… I found the board I was looking for years ago without the surf industry. I build them myself… My friend was competing in the longboard surf comps…he tells me JimP is the real deal! …

…so study the blank catalogs and make a few for you and your crew… stop over thinking the whole thing…

Stingray

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JimTheGenius said:

“…reply is, my shaper is a life guard at Salt Creek ( insert occupation or place here ) if you are that good why are they not working full time?”

Maybe because there is no money in surfboards???

20

But…if you make a great product, keep your word and stick to a plan of no short cuts, no BS and deliver, I work my ass off, 6 days at the factory, Sunday and evenings making the bitchin fins, I am no where near rich in dollars, but in satisfaction with customers responces. I have jingle in my pocket, make the rent and bills, have a reliable van and get to take the occasional surf trip ( I’m way behind on that ) too many orders, there’s no money in it if you shape shit, surf shit, shoot shit

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