Gurus ??... legends??

General Discussion
1

I didn’t want to hijack Spero’s man v machines thread so I thought I’d post this here.

there are a lot of grand words bandied about to describe the shapers of surfboards. But only by those that pusue this lifestyle.

So I thought I might put things into perspective.

Now I consider the carpenter I use to be a Master craftsman, an excellent eye for detail, always does the best for his customers and produces beautiful work. But legend?

My best mate is a plumber and also does excellent work. but does not consider himself anything other than a good plumber.

Now these two people are integral to living, you need a house and you need water, and your waste removed, but they think they are only doing their job.

How many times have you heard the phrase " (insert name of shaper ) is a bit of a wanker but he shapes nice boards".

Well you would hope he shapes nice boards after doing it for 30 or 40 years.

You dont stay in this business without, a.shaping boards that work well and b. shaping boards that look nice. But apparently you can stay in this business with being arrogant and rude to customers.

With some shapers you get the feeling, and they portay the image that the learnt their craft from a monk on a mountain top in Nepal. They aren’t curing cancer or saving third world kiddies, they’re pushing plastic around with a piece of sandpaper!!You may be surprised at the number of reps for surf companies that dread having to go and visit some shapers.

This may sound like sour grapes but I have never had a run in with another shaper. I just thought I would share my thoughts on this trade, which is what I think this is, just another trade.

Of course it takes years of hard work and dedication to build a beautiful surfboard that works well, but it also takes years of the same to build a beautiful house, and years of the same and more to be able to put a human body back together after the things that we do to them.

Just my thoughts.

All comments and criticisms gladly accepted.

Cheers

Daren

P.s.

I do aknowledge that there are many very nice and humble surfboard builders out there, and from what I have gathered from Sways many of them a post here.

2

maybe there so called wankers because most of the time they have to put up with bro can I have deal , man i rip can you sponsor me , dude if this if that, asked for light blue not that shade of blue , I wanted it 9’0" not 9’1". blah blah blah, do people ask doctors for a bro deal everyday? carpenters not!!! This could be why some shapers are so bitter they have to put up with some of the cheapest creatures on the planet surfers. What? they have to put up with all this shit to make what 100 or 200 dollars per board ?? then compete with crappy chinese boards and customers coming saying I can get a board from blah blah for 200 bucks cheaper. Maybe that might put it in perspective for you.

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After working in this industry for the last ten years and the building industry before that, I have found that surfers are among the most flexible and open people to deal with.

Many times do other trades have to argue and fight to get their due moneys from customers. "The colours not quite right, can you please do this for me while you are here, I’m not paying that much, can I fix you up next month "

These are problems inherent to all trades.

I know there are easier ways to make a living but surely the money is not the sole reason for pursuing this career.

Daren

4

As someone who has worked in the building trades and thought of pursuing an academic career, I’ve often thought the same thing about what makes shaping different. Great point and it brings up many other questions about the lifestyle/industry relationship and how that might differ from other skilled trades.

5

yeah I agree, and who says that a shaper has to be humble anyway ?

The bro deal, yeah right, I’ve had that in chunks, living in a bus with 7 children while squatting on unused industrial land working my butt off to make boards, and an 18 year old mummies boy whose sister supposedly rips wants to take my favourite 12 foot balsa off my hands for nothing while in the same breath trying to sell me a joint’s woth of leaf for $20 cash on the nail, so I’m still polite to him anyway . . . . while on the other hand last week I need an electrical inspector so that I can get the electricity back on to my house after 10 months without due to old wiring, and the local inspector won’t do it because I freak him out, so I ask my electrician surfing friend of 10 years to do the job and he does it for $350, (3 times the normal fee) and demands that I have the cash ready before he comes over, job takes half an hour plus travelling, didn’t bother saying how about a bro deal because I ‘rip’ at using electricity.

Board building is a hard life, has been for me so far anyway, the only thing that kept me going was that my boards allow me to rule the roost and I didn’t want to go back to the foam franchise funereal slowboards. . . plus the fact that I can surf whenever I feel like it.

Yeah and I have often been called an arrogant, a wave hog, blah blah blah but no one could back it up, and I am starting to make money after 10 years of shelling out blood, sweat, tears, and the proceeds of two waterfront properties now worth 2 million dollars just to make boards. . . . now I live in the valley because I build boards, could be still living in my 3 storey waterfront Raglan house or my Great Barrier Island beachfront pad and riding someone else’s crap but I would rather live in the valley in a humble house, surf the real boards and be an arrogant opinionated and creative person so WTF ??

.

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I think the role of a shaper is much more than that of a carpenter or plumber, all three have to produce a good product or service to prosper.

The carpenter and plumber produce a tangable good while the shaper produces a surfboard that is both tangable and intangable, yes you can see the board and hold it but there are things you don’t see. You are putting this board between your feet and moving water creating sensations that you wont get from other crafts.

With a surfboard a lot of them look similar and based on craftmanship they are all considered excellent but you never know how that board is going to work in the water, is it magic or a dog?

So I think that a shaper that can interpret a surfers expectations and produce a 3d sculpture that meets and sometimes exceeds these expectations on a regular basis year in and year out deserves a title of Legend. Names like Brewer, Jim Phillips and Skip Frye come to mind and I think they deserve the title as I think that an excellent carpenter deserves the master craftsman title.

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[=Blue]Great subject Entity

Seems the big difference is the media hype and celebrity that is a big part of the surf industry that pretty much doesn’t exist in the building trades. At least not with the same intensity.

Also, the age of the customer is a huge factor in your comparison as is also the cost of a given project. Expensive surfboard… $1.000.00. Expensive kitchen remodel… $75,000.00

Another issue to consider is the fashionable necessity of the item. Surf is fashionable on a near daily schedule. Surf fashion cycles every 3 months! Kitchens are fashionable, but the cycle time is more like 5-10+ years from say Corian to Granite. A plumbers PVC pipe is rarely a fashionable issue.

All this tends to cleave a big gap between the two industries. Plumbers deserving or not, don’t become legends in the minds of their customers because those customers aren’t reading Plumbers Journal or Plumbing Magazine! Nor do most people need more fashionable plumbing every few months, that only a legendary plumber could provide!

Craft wise, shapers probably don’t really deserve much notoriety either, but it is profitable for the magazines to convince readers that they do. Magazines need provocative editorial content to entice readers, so that they can sell advertising space to advertisers. And nothing is more provocative than the words and thoughts of a legend or Super Star, Celebrity!! [crazy]

Because of this, things tend to get a bit over hyped as the media players battle each other, trying to capture the minds and opinions of potential readers. More readers means they can charge higher costs for advertising space.

But to be fair. Profitable industries need to have high consumption rates. And that requires a strong need on the part of consumers, to have the latest, greatest… new thing! And to have the “right” new thing, that is properly approved…of course. You need people who can define what those approved thing are. Since “regular people” can’t decide these important things on their own. [crazy] We need Legends!

Therefore, the need for Legends, Pros, Celebrities, Super Stars and special people… is great. Because, they are needed to define what regular people need to be buying and companies need to be selling.

Most people can’t afford to remodel their homes very often, if ever. So the building industry doesn’t need very many legends or Super Stars to drive that consumerism. Not that it doesn’t have them. Frank Lloyd Wright and Martha Stewart come to mind and can clearly drive home fashion, but Plumbing probably doesn’t need legends to sell PVC pipe and fix a few leaks.

But don’t feel too bad for the plumbers. The fact that every young kid isn’t trying to become a “Cool Guy”, “Legend” Plumber is a great benefit to his personal income. Glory businesses always have too many glory seekers wanting a job in that industry. Which due to supply and demand, tends to repress prices and profitability.

It is an amazing dynamic this whole process and I often both dread and enjoy my place in it. I am not sure anyone really understands it or really controls it in mass. Surely individuals can be impacted by it for better and often for worse. Still few are really prepared for what celebrity can bring and how whacky it can get.

8

My plumber is a legend to me.

He at least deals with surfing lingo also.

Like that time he made the toilet stop having all those “floaters”!

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Great subject Entity

Craft wise, shapers probably don’t really deserve much notoriety either, but it is profitable for the magazines to convince readers that they do. Magazines need provocative editorial content to entice readers, so that they can sell advertising space to advertisers. And nothing is more provocative than the words and thoughts of a legend or Super Star, Celebrity!! [crazy]

Hey now Bill! You may or may not remember but I brought this subject up to you back in the day when I was more of a debater. The so-called “mystic shaper”, and how bogus I thought that whole mag trip was. Your response was relax, there’s no conspiracy out there to support the mystic shaper. Well Im glad youve turned the corner and fessed up. HA! :wink:

I think there have been some good points made here but I think the basis for the debate is a bit skewed towards the craftsman side. The way I see it, its more about the ride. Thus isnt it more appropriate to compare the “achivements” of a “guru” shaper, to the achievements of say a legendary sports/race car designer/engineer?

Is it about the look/design/vibe of the thing, or is it about the ride/performance?

ps - you outdid yourself there mr.OTAY…too good.

10

to me, boardmaking is more like sculpture, and less like carpentry or plumbing. Lots of guys have picked up a chisel but how many Michelangelos have there been? Some Yater boards, for example, clearly cross the line into Art, and there’s seldom any wondering why people hang them on walls and stare at them.

Plus, there is function on top of form: I’ve never had a magic sink that I desperately wanted to copy, or a kitchen counter that I couldn’t figure out how to make another one that works just as well.

I think Bill is right about the “need” for such icons by the profit-centered surf world. I would prefer the whole surf “media/industry” dried up and blew away, myself. But even if that happened there would still be a mystique, how DID he make that board that worked like a charm?.. and there would still be boards that got hung up on walls…

aloha,

11

the real question is who will pick up the reins and how?

whether we want to accept it or not most master shapers will be dead in the next 20-30 years as will most of us who came for the 50’s 60’s and 70’s before the hypre took over.

How old is Brewer, Yater, Frye, or Phillips and will they make it past 80?

Will the rest of us make it past 60 or 70

There’s not alot of guys like Rabbit still around ( 75% of his peers have passed on) because of what we did to ourselves when we thought we were indestructible.

The world of surfboard design and construction has changed dramatically as has the generations that have followed and the values they possess.

how many are willing to suffer through and apprenticeship today for mno pay trying to learn how to do it all from scratch versus learning how to make money using some form of technology?

But as they say that’s they just natural change.

The problem like Bill said is when the whole view of this lifestyle is media based like how we babble about on this environment it develops a complete different mentality than the old “shop rat” sweeping the floors days alot of us aspired too as a grom.

20-30 years is but a blip on the screen of time

we’ll have to see where the current trends takes us and if the renaissance occurs before all the “masters” are gone.

Thank god Nainoa got inspired as a lost youth while a teacher like Mau Pialug was still around.

We know now that the art of navigation will never die.

The same for our language.

They say the heart of a culture is it’s language.

And the language of surfing is the art of shaping.

Will it be the beautiful art of sign language?

Or will it be based on a combination of ones and zeros?

We are the Matrix…

12

I thought that this thread was all about why surfboard shapers are grumpier than plumbers and carpenters!

On that score I cheer myself up by attaching plumbing pipe to my board.

13

Hi Bill,

I enjoy reading your replies to posts. I t was something you said in another post about not being rocket science and not taking it too seriously that prompted me to start this.

I think that some shapers do take themselves too seriously and feel they cant learn anything more or cant take any criticism of their boards.

I dont agree with Oneula’s point about the older shapers dying and it being detrimental to the craft. Humans are excellent mimics and all it takes is for some clever bloke to see a picture and try to reproduce it, even from a drawing on a cave wall, and then tweak it to get the desired characteristics.

How many times have you seen Michaelangelos various crafts and ideas come to life by others all these years later.

The Bro deal doesnt seem to be an argument for being obnoxious, you dont have to sell your boards to these people, and if you arent making enough money from this industry maybe suppliment your income with another job. I know many people who do just that.

TomBloke it wasnt why are shapers more grumpy than plumbers, because I know some grumpy plumbers, it was more why do some shapers think their craft deserves more respect and thus gives them the right to behave as such.

There is nothing wrong pride in the things that you build and everyone, even non surfers loves the look of a beautiful, board I just dont think it gives anyone the right to behave as though they should be placed on a pedistal and worshipped, because in the end someone could go to China and teach afew people how to shape glass and sand and flood the world with boards that work pretty well and then where would we be, ohhh hang on, oh no…

Cheers

Daren

PS Yeah Otay I know afew plumbers that are excellent at pulling floaters…classic.

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Quote:

All it takes is for some clever bloke

You called ?

:wink: