Hey … surfed my newly shaped 6 9 x 20.4 x 14.25t X 11 n big boy today … in pretty shitty conditions it has to be said (2ft slop really).
Anyway - I experimented alot with this one - hard rails all the way up, wide point 3 " back and fins at 3.75 and 12 from tail (toe in 1/4"). Board looks kinda hippy but good. Well I was very concerned about the rails in the first instance - normally I leave them vv hard in the tail and blend them into the bottom very softly. Traditional wisdom says catching a rail could be a problem …
So how didit go? Well - differently…it seemed that I was skating much more on top of the water than with my regular rails, the board seemed very lively and very fast. I look forward to surfing it in better stuff — oh yeah catching rails? — well not today… didn’t seem sticky at all …
I’m thinking that hard edges all the way up are the way to go for small surf, but how about bigger conditions… how do they go here?
Silverback, I’ve got one of those with hard rails all the way up, in addition to chines. But it’s pretty big: 10’ 2". It does everything you said about your board: Fast, and it skates on top of the water. The biggest surf I’ve had it in is about head high, and that’s when it really comes to life.
I’m not sure what a flat bottom would do. (mine is concave from front to back with the last 1/3 being double concave.)
I’d be interested to hear what yours is like in bigger surf. Let us know. Doug
It’s interesting you posted that, ‘Silverback’, because the greeny/blue 5’9 pintail I’ve just made has hard rails all the way, and a flat bottom setup. Chunky nose and tail, too.
Once it’s glossed and I get some waves on it, we’ll have to compare notes…[even if mine IS a ‘tiny’ board ! …]
(…YOUR rails may not be this ‘blocky’ though, perhaps ? )
I had a 6’4" back in the seventies that I shaped with down hard rails with a flat bottom.It was a great for cranking bottom turns.Main problem was it wanted to “climb” the wave and tracked really bad making it hard to cutback.I only got to ride it on East Coast waves though.Might have been good for down the line speed on a long hollow wave.Jim Phillips shaped one for friend of mine that went unreal.Jim reversed the blank and used the tail for the nose.It had almost no nose rocker with a lot of tail flip.Maybe thats the secret? RB
I have a 9’10" with hard, turned down rails, tail to nose. It has a slight roll under the nose and then blends into a flat bottom. Originally made it for small (waist high and below) surf but soon found out that it will perform in a variety of conditions. It really does seem to glide on top of the water rather through it. I learned to turn it from farther back on the tail using momentum and weight to swing it around. Very smooth and haven’t had tracking problems in the three years since I made it. Originally, my friends laughed at the design but once they tried it, they were hooked. It has an addictive quality to it.
i had a 6’6 thruster i guess maybe ayear and a half ago. l havent ridden a tri fin since i sold that board. hard rails nose to tail. i didnt like it. it didnt pump well, i couldnt bring it from rail to rail very smoothly, the hard rails in the front didnt let me. seems like it might be better on a single fin where you dont really need to pump as much as the flatter rocker gives you most of your speed.
“but how about bigger conditions… how do they go here?”
not for me…hard rails release water too easy…big waves are about max control not max speed…low soft and forgiving, approaching 50/50. I use tucked under edge (nice compromise) rails on my rocket fish and small wave shorties
You have to be careful with hard rails farther up than just in the tail. Generally, Concave in the board where the hard rails are (except tail area) will be fighting each other. Also not enough rocker is another reason for problems with the hard rails. Minimum rocker can be balanced with some V in the areas with the edges.
Overall, a board designed as a whole to acommodate this rail set up is really exciting to ride, but there some tricks to shaping them properly.
mine go off in up to double over head , after that it becomes a tail area issue …
i still keep hard edges in my up north boards , up there the waves are fast , big and clean , the edges give better release for mindblowing speed through fast barrels …for hold i tighten the pins and lengthen them …
the softer rails work well when the waves are bowly and bumpy … theyll soften the ride and help hug the face …the hard edges tend to feel sensitive , but a little to sensitive in chattery bumpy conditions , they feel every bump …
……Anyway - I experimented alot with this one - hard rails all the way up……I was very concerned about the rails in the first instance - normally I leave them vv hard in the tail and blend them into the bottom very softly. Traditional wisdom says catching a rail could be a problem ……I’m thinking that hard edges all the way up are the way to go for small surf, but how about bigger conditions… how do they go here?
All the kneeboards (except 1) that I’ve built since 1969 have had hard rails all the way around and I have ridden some of them in waves 2X+ without any problems (except on one board with a particularly parallel planform). The most radical hard rails were on “Pantagruel” (1971, pic attached) which had sheet glass (1/8" thick) all around the perimeter and generally extending inward about 3+ inches to the beginning of the foam.
Surfed my hard railer today in good (ish) waves for the first time (I hate this time of year - dark @ 4.00pm! and classic surf all week) - I think it’s gonna take some getting used to… feels twitchy and very very skaty. But I have to say it gets over flat spots easier and seems to catch waves a little bit better. However - it doesn’t seem to like whitewater very much …totally lost it a few times in critical whitewater sections
hi Silver, my new ‘stub’ has chunky, pretty hard rails too. [To well forward of the front foot, even. ]
After today’s first surf on it, I noticed the ‘sitting above the water’ sensation you mentioned…especially when turning.
I think that’s a good thing for me when paddling, but until I get a decent shaped righthander and get to do a forehand cutback, I won’t really know if that is hindering the board’s performance, or just something I will need to adapt to. As I said in the launching stub thread, the rail thickness [and deck to rail transition, too, probably] would be something I’d look at thinning on my next one. On the bottom, I think I need to do a more tucked under edge, and angle the bottom rail upwards [ie: round it a bit more], if that makes sense. I want to be able to SINK the tail rails , and have them hold through the turn, rather than kinda ‘floating’ upwards. [I can see where the ‘corky’ description applies now !] The board sits on top of the water more than it needs to, is how I would describe it…the ‘waterskate’ thread and description is coming back to my mind as I type this !
I am used to these rails…I’ve had them on several of my boards, and even a coupla commercially made ( '70s,though) ones I’ve had.
Rails and rocker are two things I need to get better at with my shaping…making my next one from a new blank will help, definately !
I don’t know if any of this helps you, it’s more just observations of what I rode today. It will be interesting to compare how the green pin goes [narrower, more rocker, different tail].But I want to persevere with the stubbie for quite a while first…
More fin increases drag for a front foot speedster, but if you can turn it hard, speed is never a problem pushing off the bigger fins for more distance.
Been shaping boards with all down hard edged rails from '69 - 77.
Work fine, just need nose rocker and maybe a narrower nose template without ears.
Sizing from 5’ to 9’11", I always wondered why they faded away.
When you stand forwards, they’re really quick responding. When you stand back, they’re solid and normal.
Might use more fin, as hard rails tend to drop out of steep fast waves.
I still like the combination of hard down rails with a dead flat deck.
hi Lee !
…would they have been like this : - [single fin]
or, MORE down railed ?
same kind of thickness ? [this one’s 2 5/8"]
For a board like this [5’7 "x 20 "], what size fin would you use in ,say, up to head-high fairly dredgy surf ? [the tailblock / pod is 7 1/2 " , if that helps ]
From my point of view, if you can’t see it then there is not too much vee, and I don’t see too much vee in that board, from any angle. Looking again I don’t see too much nose lift either.
Not much V for such a thick, 90 degree down rail. Should be GREAT for mushy, slow, small waves tho.
Needs tons of fin, maybe a narrow 9’5" single, or an 8 with front or back canard 5"er.
With that width and rails, most guys place a straight edge on one side and measure out at least 5/8th V out the other rail, at the spot between your feet. Ida gone close to 3/4" of V measured that way.
As is, a great, responsive board for small, mushy, slow waves.
