Hey Rich, I would love to get a set like Lees . Also if we could put them on all the Pescados that would be cool, Lees right think production.Rincon today 4 to 5 lite crowd am.
I just got back in from a fin experiment on a Pescado while I wait for Rich to get some free time. Tried some 3/2 vectors but didn’t like 'em. what size board are you using them in?
6’8"
got it.
Lees is a 6’8’’ mine is 6’10’', I have Red X fiberglass 60 40 foils , nice tip flex. I let Mr. Bojorquez borrow it, now I cant get it back.
When I had Wil Jobson cornered a few weeks ago I asked him how he foiled his twist fins. These are straight with the finbox at the base, and twist so they are parallel with the stringer between 2 and 3 inches up from the base. The rationale is that the water flow is more to the side at the hull, more parallel to the stringer near the tip. So, you get a more responsive, and lower drag, fin by using a twist.
Anyway, Wil calculated the number of layers needed to put the twist in, and ground them off first. Then, he proceeded to foil the rest of the fin.
Its an innovative idea, one I saw from Halcyon first. I had a similar impression to LeeVs on a set of his fins I rode.
BTW, I’ve been playing with fin lockout angles for rotating thruster rail fins. Lockout changes from 1 to 4 degrees, in 0.5 degree increments. A full degree change is hugely noticeable, taking it from a vertical surfing fin with little thrust to a powerfully thrusting fin a little hard to go vert on. Let it out another degree and it is driveless.
For reference 1/8th inch is 1.6 degrees, 1/4 inch is 3.2 degrees. On this board 2-2.5 degrees seems best. But 1 degree lets me get vert quite well (with a huge loss in drive - short radius turns easy, generating speed tough). 3.2 degrees (stock on the board) is just too loose and lifeless.
I was out in some pretty good surf today and tried to “pump” up some speed on Rich’s fins…not going to happen. That little squirt you get as you unweight normally foiled side fins just isn’t there. But you really don’t need it as the lack of drag gives you all the speed you need. They get as vertical as anyone could want but with a hair more effort needed to get there. With tons of drive too, they are pretty damn versatile.
Hey Rich (and Lee V.) -
I have the exact same board as Lee (6’8" Pescado), currently using JC1 Med. Flex Futures. I’m REAL interested in obtaining an identical set of from you to spice up my rail turns. I’ll drop you a PM.
Thanks for the resurrection, Lee. Sounds like you’ve been havin’ some fun lately…
Hey Rich , how about a set of traveling Pescado fins ? Ill buy!!
Quote:
I was out in some pretty good surf today and tried to "pump" up some speed on Rich's fins...not going to happen. That little squirt you get as you unweight normally foiled side fins just isn't there. But you really don't need it as the lack of drag gives you all the speed you need. They get as vertical as anyone could want but with a hair more effort needed to get there. With tons of drive too, they are pretty damn versatile.
The thrust is in the toe-in. If the fins are not toed in enough, the board holds a line well, is real responsive in turns, but no squirt. A little more toe-in, you increase squirt and decrease hold. A little more toe-in, and it is all over - driveless mush fin setup. The entire workable range is only about 3/16th inches wide (toe-in measured normally against a 4.5 inch base length). The twist effectively removes a little toe-in, it is possible the angle is very slightly less than optimal now.
I’m a firm believer that ability to generate speed via thrust is a key performance component of a 3 fin system. With a system like 4wfs or Edgefins you could dial this in.
HTH.
Hey Lee,
(-; Glad things are going so well on your Pescado set-up.
Production huh!? – Well, a man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do and we both know the two things it takes to go into production. Trouble is I’m not willing to sacrifice quality for quantity so until someone comes along with both of the things I need I’ll just keep rolling and grinding.
I want to address that squirt you’re talking about here: It “squirt” is about the board being ready to go faster than a given fin set up will allow the board to go in a given part of the wave face by fin restriction. It is that instant of reducing the drag coefficient by releasing the lower rail fin (the one dragging) and engaging the upper rail fin (the one driving). This situation so called squirt is an illusion that speed is being developed, when in fact you were busy loosing it while all three fins were engaged . So the only want to surf a thruster effectively with high drag fins is to never have all three fins engaged unless you want the board to stall. We have to also consider Blakestah’s point regarding toe in and it’s effect on this so called “squirt factor” – more toe-in = more drag = more “squirt”.
Lee, have a look at where the line of the fin box falls on the front of the boards you’re riding and let me know where it is. If you want to get vertical more easily the three things that will get you there is (A) amping up the rails with full based fins and (B) taking some cant out of them and (C)toeing them in more.
Hey Kirk,
A set of traveling Pescado fins sound like a great idea. I think exchanging a few personal messages here at Swaylocks will put us in the right direction. Any ideas on the production end of things will appreciated mate. If you want Red X T.O. will have to figure in the picture somewhere because I’m simply not set up to do fin tabs for his system.
Some general observations: Full based fins do give more drive and lift than cutaway fins do. If you’re not loosing speed do to unnecessary drag you have to search the wave for more power and develop more speed by the drive that your fins will deliver because releasing the lower fin doesn’t change the drag effect significantly with more efficiently foiled fins. One more note here: Cutaway templated fins flow much more freely from rail to rail and tend to amplify steerage regardless of how far fore or aft the board is weighted while full based tend to dampen steerage when the board is weighted forward and thus encourage the back footed surfing that dominates the world of the thruster cluster. Cutaway templated fins trim much more freely that full based fins do but as we know when you gain on thing you loose something else. At this point in time I along with Lee V. prefer the versatility I get from cutaway templated fins. With regard to this very issue, that is the frontier of foils and template on full bases rail fins I have sent T.O. a full set of his X2 template fins with my foil as prototypes. For the record they are cut from the same panel as Lee V’s fins. I think once he gets the tabs tooled and has a few sessions we’ll find that his comparative reports between the 80/20. flat sided, and Halcyon foiled X2s will be most revealing. With the same board and same rider on all three fin foils of the same template the type of constants are there to produce real results.
Back to the fin shop, Rich
P.S. I wish you guys could see Peter Mel on his quad with my fins on it. He does things I’ve never dreamed of.
Share the stoke!
Quote:
I want to address that squirt you’re talking about here: It “squirt” is about the board being ready to go faster than a given fin set up will allow the board to go in a given part of the wave face by fin restriction. It is that instant of reducing the drag coefficient by releasing the lower rail fin (the one dragging) and engaging the upper rail fin (the one driving). This situation so called squirt is an illusion that speed is being developed, when in fact you were busy loosing it while all three fins were engaged . So the only want to surf a thruster effectively with high drag fins is to never have all three fins engaged unless you want the board to stall. We have to also consider Blakestah’s point regarding toe in and it’s effect on this so called “squirt factor” – more toe-in = more drag = more “squirt”.
The squirt to which I refer I feel similarly on a rotating single fin (which adopts a toe-in analogous to an inner rail fin when you turn), or a rigid thruster.
But in my current setup, there is NO release from the outside rail fin. It toes out, completely aligned with the water flow. And still, the observation persists. Fins with less toe in (now only considering a turn, b/c my fins are straight when you do not turn), have more hold and less thrust. If the toe-in increases slightly, you lose some hold and gain thrust. With yet more toe-in the thrust is also lost along with the hold.
With this fin setup I am trying to dial in the best combo of hold/thrust by changing the maximum toe-in angle. The outside rail fin is irrelevant, as the rotation there is low-force, and the fin just folds away. Also, the toe-in doesn’t come with more drag - going into a turn both rail fins are aligned with the stringer.
The rear fin is standard, and fixed.
This may be tough to understand, I guess. Each rail fin has a standard shape and size and cant. Each is in a rotating finbox. It allows the fin to rotate either direction. Force for rotating to toe-in is very very stiff, force for rotating to toe-out is very soft. There is a toe-in maximum lock-out angle that has a huge impact on the quality of the ride. Too much toe-in allowed, and it is a mush ball. Too little, and it is good for vertical surfing, but it lacks drive. In between there is a compromise.
The toe-out works quite well. It is like you don’t even have an outside rail fin in each turn.
Rich- I’ve been checking the archives , asking questions and lurking. I really would love to get my hands on a set of these fins for my 7’2" Anderson Bojoquez Pescado. Possible? Need a future’s set up. Surf point beaks. Typicaly Malibu, Topanga, Rincon… How do I go about ordering these from you?
Mahalo.\
Your working in an area that has only had its surface scratched. Keep on.
I would like to throw out some notions here without really coming to any conclusions:
Weren’t cambered side fins carried over into thrusters from the days of the twinnie as a means of breaking the tracking tendency? Maybe all-out speed fins, sacrificing lift to minimize drag, could be thicker and symmetrical when attached to a hull that is inherently loose.
Most fixed wing aircraft have wash-out in the wing tips (twisted like your side fins) in order to provide a gradual stall characteristic rather than a surprise stall, i.e., the wing tips keep lifting even when the root end of the wing is entering stall. It would be interesting to push that concept for fins designed to make it easier to control tail slides and cavitation in general.
Appreciate it if you, or anyone else that has them, could post any experiences or thoughts on the above.
Yo Nomad,
Check your personal messages when you get a chance.
No Worries, Rich
Rich,
Was on my edgy fish with the fins today in 2XOH suck outs and they worked soooooo well. The 6’4" was a bit nervous but the fins held and gave me so much confindence! I’ll say it again…they are the best cluster fins I’ve ever ridden.
Lee
P.S. These swells over the past 10 days are for the books! Dead glass to slight offshore and hitting my little garden perfectly. I can’t remember so much quality over as long a period…sorry you guys are getting all the weather heh…heh…heh.
Hey Lee,
Thanks for the performance report mate. I remember you mentioning when we met here at “The Hook” you were going to give the fins a go on your edge board. Bet you got some epic rides mate. I just sent a thruster set-up to Cheyne for FCS with fins similar to yours but with smaller trailers and a more aggressive and more flexible trailer; They’re all cut away. He’s in OZ teaching but I can’t wait to here the performance news when he gets back to Hawaii. The set-up for Waahoo’s Pescado are all done but for the polishing. That’ll happen when the weather breaks here in a few days. I made his with bigger rail fins than yours and more flexible trailer cause he’s in smaller waves most of the time and can use the rail drive to generate more lift off the rails and a little give in the center fin.
O! – looks like I’ll be able to download some photos in about a week or so – Lots of pictures in the camera to share.
Maybe maybe it’ll clean up enough in about a week or so. Who knows – we’re getting pounded.
Got out at 38th day before yesterday, and got a few waves tha were overhead, whooa – beyond committed on some of those bottom turns – yeah baby!
Mahalo, Rich
Brandy new set of fins from Halcyon for a Pescado. Haven’t had 'em in the water yet but thought I would post some pics for others interested.
The lighter colored fin is one of the rail fins - the darker colored fin being the center.
Hey Waaahoo,
Thanks for posting the photos.
For the record – Your fins are Polyester/6oz. E glass.
So they are more flexible than Lee V’s.
I made your set a little bigger than his too because of the conditions you’re in and the specks of your board.
The foils on the fins and templates are the same.
I’ll look forward hearing how they handle the surf there in Jersey.
Glad to hear your new babe is happy by the sea side
Good Waves, Rich
Bumped it for the good stuff from Halcyon and for the Pescado
I’ve been on a multi-fin kick lately, mostly flat and hull bottomed keel fish. Dusted this puppy off and paddled out into some head high peelers and shin high flappers. Forgot how powerfull the combination of Rich’s fins and a flat bottom can be. Gotta start a weight program to get my leg strength up to match the potential of this set up. Yowza!
Pretty fun to get vertical, then drive a highline trim with no loss of speed…