history of belly

General Discussion
1

so whats the deal?

how much has belly changed over the years. im really curious.

was it before tom blake invented the fin? why did it take so many years to come up with a flat bottom board?

did belly get more and more subtle through the 50’s and 60’s until brewer took over, or were people content with belly shape (i know i am sometimes)?

how did it evolve and how did it end? just tell me random info about rolled bottoms, and although im interested in all aspects of it, i especially talking about logs.

because a little bit of belly and no edge in the tail really lights me up on a log. it makes walkin feel right.

2

brewers pocket rockets had belly but edge aft.hynson, influenced by whom, i can’t recall-maybe brewer -was an advocate of the flat bottom down railer.for logs roll in tail rail is drag which is what is good for keepin ya on the nose.a flat edge will tend to release and wanna go forward.look at the mp performer-flat , down edge rail in nose and heaps of round rail in tail, as an example…Dennis???a little input please…

3

but a log has roll in the tail, making it draggy and good fir tip time.

i always thought the same thing, but then rode scotts hull and found the benefits of bottom roll, and now i feel like it makes my logs go better, like i can make it go fast with subtle movement.

matt, you ride hulls, and the board is more or less based on belly generating speed. how can it not do the same thing in a log?

4

Belly… over the belt kind, soft, bounce like jello = too much fatty foods. Hard, no bounce like jello = too much beer.

5

Roll in the bottom of boards in the 50’s I can’t comment on. Didn’t start surfing until ’62. But in the sixties roll in the bottom was pretty much stock in trade. I don’t remember seeing any hard edge tankers in the sixties. That doesn’t mean hard edges didn’t exist. Down rails forward yes but, without an edge, tails with roll and small radius rockers make for smooth tail turning and nose rides in trim.

With all that I was involved with hard edges didn’t take hold until post V bottom days. Try ’69 – ’70. Where the edges started in the tail areas to just forward of the fin. By the time twin fins came in the edges would be hard nose to tail.

As long boards came back in the early ‘80’s edges came with them. Though usually only in the tail areas with softer rails forward. The new long boards dropped bottom roll. Replaced curved roll with V. V in the mid section a-la D.T. and or V in tail. Flats and concaves under nose.

Soft curved roll hasn’t ended, and probably never will. Applied right it’s a good design concept.

6

posted sept 27 2005;

the down rail in flat surfaces accesses the lift so popular in the stacked rails of 1969

by the way down railers and stacked rails are direct decendants of of the bunker rode

bob smith edge boards that overthrew the heirarchy at pipeline

by going right and making waves.

from 0ct 29 2004;

the edge board guys spawned from backdoor pipeline days of bunker spreckles and his band of raging cohorts,value brothers,dana nicely ,O.B. division ben ferris ,john riddle et al .

flat bottoms per se were a product of the milled lumber approach to board blank assembly.

faster than logs obviously but proved to be slide ass machines.

The first overthrow of the flat bottom was by the hot cutl kids w/the ax ,see john kelly article where ever that was.

round bottoms -roll bottoms became the norm to avoid the flat bottom drawbax-

edge CATCHING outside rails

and eventual fin dependence for directional

progress [thats the opposite of ‘‘slide ass’’]

roll in the bottom of the contemp shape 60’s went aft before it became V

the peckatrator had a massive round bpttom in the tail

perhaps a demonstration reactionary to the concave tail of the buzzy trent models made by r.b.

jacobs made em too

concave bottom tails yeah!

the Nollistic slots

but after that … the roll bottom tails became V bottoms.

NOTHING IS NEw just new to you SAM REID SAID THAT

that said and put aside

we can apraise the flats.

hard edges are omni present in the overshape school of rails

nothing holds better than a nice round

hard rails slide side ways

good for some moments

also good to have a fin of area with the demonsttrative flats

to aid in catching the drift

retro roll only went as far as the consuming public wished to support .

the liddle league dis placement bottoms show more classy roll control than

the adverage bear,no patent infringe ment as of yet ,bears are all flat bottoms.

early 60s

big belly in semi guns ridden in windy sunset to dampen chop when boards weighed a lot,like 40lbs

and pigment brought the weight up

on un acceptably light boards…

flat bottoms slapped the cop rounde split the chop to smoothe out the ride

chime in anywhere any body I’m just sleepy and riteing wrandomly right now

maybe I’ll read it later and edit into understandability

…ambrose…

couldn’t leave w/ out a liddle edit

oh yeah brewer pocket rockets

got flatter after seeing the bunker successes first hand .

see cover shot of bunkie as beach urchin holding edge board

on art brewer photography tome -surfers journal tome

mc tovarich wrote the comment some where busting the day they all gave bunkie credit.

the behind the scenes guy was the bob smith guy

speeding was the goal

pipe was the arena’

7

i don’t have much history of belly…

then again, i’m only 26…

everybody tells me that when my metabolism slows down

it’ll be another story though…

8

i’m here all week folks,

don’t forget to tip your waiters!

9

thanks everybody, learning a lot.

ambrose, great responise, im slowly learning your writing style, its taken me a few years.

dennis, can you elaborate on why you feel that "Applied right it’s a good design concept:, when you speak of roll.

10

Poser, if you do a search on ‘belly’ you’ll find some good discussion. BTW

For me ‘applied right’ is a balance thing. The roll needs to be put in the right place and then one needs to know the performance nuances.

Example 1: On my classic tankers the roll is aft. However, tail width and outline curve will affect turning performance noticeably starting in waves head high +. Wide curve hips with roll will skip and spin out in taller surf if you weight into your turns hard. At the same time wide curve hips with roll and, the right rocker of course, nose ride really well. And, you don’t need a big wide nose, 16” to 17” is fine. With roll aft but narrower tails and straighter outlines skip isn’t much of a problem but nose rides are more an in trim type deal. So balance what you want in your surfing accordingly.

Example 2: In my hulls, board lengths between 6’0 and 8’0, the roll starts under the nose area ( classic belly ) and progresses aft and outward along the rail line. Here for me it’s important to balance the roll with the rocker and foam volume ( foil ). Too much rocker will push water and make for a hard paddle. As well, foam volume needs to be distributed for optimum paddle, entry and board performance. My hulls should be ridden with feet planted between fin and greatest area of foam. And, when the roll is balanced with the other dynamics you get smooth driving rail to rail surfing as desired.

Hope that makes sense and is helpful.

D.R.

11

Was reading DR’s last post.

Had my Liddle Pbreaker out in some headhigh pointsurf on Tues. no one else out, cept for one pal. Really enjoyed the surf and the board. - - only 2nd session i’ve had on it. i fig’d out the cutback tho - nothing exceptionally beautiful, but i did keep bringin it around, thanks to some feedback ideas from peeps here. DR’s foot placement makes sense. (over the dome)

BUT, she’s definately not a great-paddling board. (It does get into waves ok tho) i mean sometimes it feels like i’m draggin a sea-anchor (like a parachute). gotta be that belly.

12

This might be a longshot but you’re fin may be too far forward and that can pull the hull too far under the surface. Usually you will notice it just as you take off. Feels like seaweed wrapped around the fin. You HAVE to fine tune the fin and board together. It’s a pain in the ass to do but the rewards are spectacular. A 1/4 inch in fin placement will make a HUGE difference.

13

Nobody mentioned Geoff McCoy and Cheyne Horan, but there’s some great performance surfing under Cheyne’s feet with roll shaped into his boards. And a wing in his fin!

Weird how soft the roll under the back third of my log feels paddling, and then when I scoot forward, I can really tell that the forward third is flattish. The speed of wave pickup sure changes too when I do that. I can’t really tell if it’s the rocker, roll, or both.

14

i carry a washer on a cord around my neck, and i adjust every so often after a ride. I started with trailing edge of fin 12" from tail (used a marker to write in measurments off the notches GL cuts into the finbox). I’ve moved it up as far are 14", about the front of the box. Now i’m back to about 13.25". honestly i don’t think it’ll ever paddle with some of the glide my other boards have. But no matter where i’ve placed the fin, she does catch waves OK – like you and matt once told me it would be – position and sprint paddle - ‘no bicycle’ in.

15

9878w, i completely agree with your anchor feel. i borrowed scotts board and i remember my first sesh, paddling out at 3-4 foot semi clean rincon, and expecting great paddling, only to feel like i could hardly move the thing.

but i did feel the glide, and the speed everybody talks about. they really are great boards, and i wish i had enough cash to own one. i really really do. im such a logger, and i used to be primarily a shortboarder. now its all bout loggin, but sometimes i need something fresh, and shortboards just aren’t that fun to me anymore, and a hull is like the PERFECT addition to my quiver. and i cant afford.

dennis, thanks so much for that reply.

so far thats been the most informative statement about belly related to logs and hulls since this whole thing entered my mind heavily after reading the sj article.

most people dont get specific about how the bottom works, because i guess they dont really know–they just say its magical or it just has a feel…you actually explained it and i appreciate that.

thanks!

16

dennis, on an average day, not using surfline or anything else, just going for a natural nontechnilogical surf, what board do you take?

17

yeah, Poser - that’s where i’ve been for the last coupla years - something different.

hey i wanna be clear tho - even tho my hull doesn’t paddle as well as i’d like - so far i love the way she rides. and i’m enjoyin the challenge of learning to do things differently. (like the cutback)

18
Quote:

dennis, on an average day, not using surfline or anything else, just going for a natural nontechnilogical surf, what board do you take?

Well… I’m not sure what a technological surf is. Nontechnelogical? Is not in my spellchecker.

I live 3 blocks east and 4 blocks north of Ventura Pier. I pretty much only surf between the pier and Ventura River so it’s easy to check the surf and then go get whatever board I want to ride. Surfing for me is completely recreational. I still love surfing today as much as when I started 44 years ago. And, I’m still amazed that it’s possible for us to take a piece of foam and fiberglass out into the ocean, paddle after a wave, have the wave scoop us up, stand up on the foam and fiberglass and slide on top the water.

Anyway, average maybe meaning less than head high and OK conditions, I’ll ride my 9’0 tanker. A single fin Classic Machine… though it’s really a reissue early William Dennis, but don’t tell anybody.

Kinda more than you asked for,

D.R.

19

Dennis,

Is that one of the William Dennis boards shaped by Spence?(Spencer Kellogg)

roger

20

on the hulls fin placement is critical.yes it’s a pain in the ass but once you find the spot that will get you into waves AND perform it’s bliss.it really is a subblte art of balance.in addition, you might find you have the fin almost there, but perhaps you feel the board isn’t quite hitting on all gears.what you might want to do is palce a similar depth fin, with less base, at that same spot then see what happens. in general, with same depth but with less base you will end up moving it back a tad-say 1/4" or so.

dennis- i dig your longboards-they are works of art and the bottom curve and aft rail are -well, dare i say sensual…it’s such a beautiful blend…