To SK,etc, Please be aware that most of the posters on Swaylocks are garage guys. Take their comments with a grain of salt as they are looking at things from a diffrent perspective. They are hungry for knowledge and sometimes have opinions that greatly differ from the pro shapers. It’s cool that pro shapers contribute to the knowledge of the garage guys, they just have to realize that there are 2 diffrent trains of thought going on.
BINGO!
Thank you for Lesson 2 in moral relativism. You’re saying that an amateur stealing a pro’s shape can be immoral if viewed from the prospective of a pro, but moral if viewed from the prospective of an amateur. The other idiot (“HUH”) tried to tell us that, even though theft may be harmful, nobody who has done anything harmful has a right to judge. Using this logic, since we have all done harmful things, then nobody has the right to judge any act. Everything is okay. Now you’re trying to tell us that people who share some attribute with the perpetrator may correctly agree with the act of theft. Bullshit. So what, you’re an amateur. I’m an amateur. I’d like to introduce you to a concept unfamiliar to you, “right” and “wrong”. Theft is theft. Tracing someone else’s outline isn’t some capital crime in my book, but it’s “wrong”. Making your own shape is “right”. Now lets go over that again. Theft = “wrong”. No theft = “right”. Whether you are an amateur or a pro, whether you have ever done anything “wrong” or not. To pros reading this idiot, NO! He does not speak for me. I only hope he doesn’t speak for most people.
I think mm was simply stating that pro shapers and hobby guys percieve the art of board building differently. Not better or worse, just diffrent. aloha
If somebody has a problem with someone copying a few dimensions off one of their boards and thinks that’s stealing…well, your probably in the wrong business. Either that or there’s 50 years worth of slimy thieves out there waiting to be brought to justice. What’s next??? Copyright attorneys running around surfshops and glass-shops? Hooray for those whose only reward is to see the adoption of their thoughts and philosophies. As for the surfboard, you can really only re-invent the wheel as we know it so many times.
Being a professional at something doesn’t necessarily mean that he or she is any good at it…it just means they get paid for there work. Next time your go to your doctor remember this… …50% of all doctors that graduate…graduate at the bottom of there class.Herb. P.S. I AGREE WITH TOM ON mm’s post.Also, we will do what we do, regardless of what anyone says,but it’s nice that you keep us on our toes Noodle.
I suppose everybody who has built a “thruster” thought it all up on their own???
If somebody has a problem with someone copying a few dimensions off one of > their boards and thinks that’s stealing…well, your probably in the > wrong business. Either that or there’s 50 years worth of slimy thieves out > there waiting to be brought to justice. What’s next??? Copyright attorneys > running around surfshops and glass-shops? Hooray for those whose only > reward is to see the adoption of their thoughts and philosophies.>>> As for the surfboard, you can really only re-invent the wheel as we know > it so many times. The outline of a board is only one design parameter out of a minimum of 5, the others being rocker, foil, rail, and bottom contour. These are the bare essentials, and of them, outline is probably the one that least affects a board’s performance. But for an unexperienced shaper (and for many of the surfers who don’t shape, or understand design, or know the first thing about it, or care) it’s the outline of a board that hits first and seems most important: it defines the “style” or “category” a board fits into; and even more than that, it defines a board’s aesthetic value, it’s “cool” quotient. Not that this isn’t in some way very important: the culture of surfing would not have become what it is today without a major emphasis on how cool we are, how cool our tools (toys) are, and by ultimate extension, how cool the surfing life is. However, anybody with experience, talent, brains with regard to how the various elements of surfboard design play out in the realm of surfboard performance knows that you can’t make a surfboard that works (let alone one that embodies years and years of dues payments) simply by tracing the outline of a board that looks really cool. Maybe you can make one that sells, or at least attracts the attention of surfers; but you’ve got to be able to combine all the parameters in a complete design in order to make a surfboard that works. Now I’m not condoning the practice of tracing outlines–I’ll leave that to the seasoned and morally unassailable pros who use the instructional video pulpit to tell beginners it’s OK–and even flattering–to trace the outlines of the masters. I personally think it’s stupid for a beginner to think he/she can learn a goddamned thing about the art of shaping by tracing somebody else’s line. (I figured that one out in kindergarten, but maybe I’m just a fast learner, I don’t know.) What I want to throw out there is this: tracing outlines might rightly be considered “theft”, but that’s just legalese. In the world of real mojo, how threatening is it to let some knucklehead have a cheap and easy fix of “cool” or “awesome” or “bitchin” in only two dimensions? You gurus know it takes more than that. Infinitely more. And the good little guys of Swaylock–the “hobbyists” who delight in trying to bring their foggy dreams to life–know it too, I think.
Right on. Copying a shape and passing it off as your own is wrong. Copying an outline and feeling confident that you have faithfully reproduced a shape is naive but it happens all the time and hopefully is part of the learning curve. Think about this: how many surfers out there today got a board “just like that Rusty”. A camparison they make based solely on the two dimensional outlines of the two boards. “Onward Through the Fog” TS>>> The outline of a board is only one design parameter out of a minimum of 5, > the others being rocker, foil, rail, and bottom contour. These are the > bare essentials, and of them, outline is probably the one that least > affects a board’s performance. But for an unexperienced shaper (and for > many of the surfers who don’t shape, or understand design, or know the > first thing about it, or care) it’s the outline of a board that hits first > and seems most important: it defines the “style” or > “category” a board fits into; and even more than that, it > defines a board’s aesthetic value, it’s “cool” quotient. Not > that this isn’t in some way very important: the culture of surfing would > not have become what it is today without a major emphasis on how cool we > are, how cool our tools (toys) are, and by ultimate extension, how cool > the surfing life is. However, anybody with experience, talent, brains with > regard to how the various elements of surfboard design play out in the > realm of surfboard performance knows that you can’t make a surfboard that > works (let alone one that embodies years and years of dues payments) > simply by tracing the outline of a board that looks really cool. Maybe you > can make one that sells, or at least attracts the attention of surfers; > but you’ve got to be able to combine all the parameters in a complete > design in order to make a surfboard that works. Now I’m not condoning the > practice of tracing outlines–I’ll leave that to the seasoned and morally > unassailable pros who use the instructional video pulpit to tell beginners > it’s OK–and even flattering–to trace the outlines of the masters. I > personally think it’s stupid for a beginner to think he/she can learn a > goddamned thing about the art of shaping by tracing somebody else’s line. > (I figured that one out in kindergarten, but maybe I’m just a fast > learner, I don’t know.) What I want to throw out there is this: tracing > outlines might rightly be considered “theft”, but that’s just > legalese. In the world of real mojo, how threatening is it to let some > knucklehead have a cheap and easy fix of “cool” or > “awesome” or “bitchin” in only two dimensions? You > gurus know it takes more than that. Infinitely more. And the good little > guys of Swaylock–the “hobbyists” who delight in trying to bring > their foggy dreams to life–know it too, I think.
The best thing about being an amateur garage builder is you can make the type of boards you like to surf and don’t have to rely on finding a mass produced shape that is just what your looking for. Boards that are made by a few master board builders that are custom made are not included because these guys can make what ever you want. I think anyone who has ever made and then surfed their own board will tell you its all part of the same stoke. So pros know more than us amateurs and some of the advise in this forum is amateur to amateur, so what. Techniques change when you move out of your tool equipped shop and into the back yard…welcome to the underground…I value all of the advise in this forum regardless of who’s opinion it is…I can learn something from just about anyone…now, if I could just find the secret to perfect laps…
Everyone…its a curve…that is all…get over it. Now let’s all hug.
I wonder if MM is Mickey Munoz.
P.S. “garage shapers” infers that you shape in a garage. Knowledge has no bounds. If I am not mistaken, greg noll is back shaping in HIS garage. (“I knew Greg Noll, and …sir…you are no Greg Noll”…{overheard at a recent presidential debate}).
i hear all you guys, its all got some truth. yawner, it is just a curve, and as primarily a shortboard shaper, how different is a 6’2" rusty thruster from a merrick from a jc, etc. an 1/8th or 1/16th here or there, they’re all pretty much the same. anyway, like herb said, we’re all gonna do whatever we want(or suits are immediate needs) anyway.
I wonder if Al is Al? Did you see that post ? TS