Dennis Anderson? no not for a while, good guy and shaper, a survivor, but was a bit crook last time I heard, abt 6 to 8 years ago, H. sorry for the delay, didnt see the post.
…hello Feraldave,
good that your orders are increased.
About previous comment, I understand that in that situation that you found in the past, the machine and crew were the answer. I never talked about that, actually about facts. Oranges and Lemons are not the same, even Lemons and Limes are not the same.
So for me is important the person-person interaction; that some one sweat making something for me… Labor of love
I dont see that having a machine and others doing all other work is something more than a business…may be Im wrong
but understand me well, Im in a position (due to Im not the younger but not the older) that I dont see too many rookies or youngers than me that REALLY hold this craft the way to be.
We should preserve next generation of craftmen and educate or show, at least, to most surfers that the way surfboards are,
is not finishing selling them in the supermarkets and like skateboards or sponges.
So Im not talked about business, I talked about other things
Anyway, still there s place for both worlds…but not for too long
I really think that thee machine, the surfschools, the megacorps owning everything, the Qsilvers, Billab, Hurleys, etc will ruin in a few years more one of the last resorts…surfboards and the spirit
+1 Reverb. Hold on tight, there is hope.
The machine loves crowds
I hate to admit it, I bought some board covers off this business, that just blatently only sells chinese stuff. The board covers were for friends, mostly longboard covers, the super $50, the silver, $35, what do you do, I'm sorry. They started up in our little board building community about 3 or 4 years ago, I didn't like it, others went further, death threats [not me], they kicked bigtime, now have a big wharehouse/surfshop, they are selling ripcurl, oneil, some other brands, they know their shit. The worst, I saw a Hot Buttered board, god forgive Terry, for $420. What do you do? I could drive for an hour to Byron, get wholesale, pay double, for a board cover. If anyone doesn't know that the shaping machine caused this, I don't know what to say to you, H.
No big deal, sooner or later an apocalypse will occur. all the high tech stuff will be rendered uselss as the energy crisis deepens and plays out.
People will have to relearn core values long forgotten like family, work ethic, honesty.
These are superficial times masked with nanosecond digital diversions that numb the mind and rot the soul…
Where’s Ambrose?
Close to the bone Deadshaper....the machine tech is a 2 bladed sword......its not how you use it , but why you use it . Like nuclear fusion. As soon as greed enters the equation , it can only be a weapon of mass destruction.
…yes DS, but we are living the interlude…and that is nothing for history but a lot for the people who live in that period of time.
Several decades (and generations -that in some countries are just ruined-) to the change in society you talk, occurs.
Kayu,
seems that you talked the same that me.
A recent surf mag asked half a dozen people if they thought handshaping would go away. Nearly everyone said no or that they hoped it would not.
I’d compare it to when people said that techno pop music and what Madonna was doing would take over and music would no longer require musicians.
I’d hate to be the customer that got a magic board and then found out no one could duplicate the one that got stolen because we lost our data and didn’t have a backup file.
I can see it now "well, uh, we lost your file, and the guy that shaped them out kinda remembers what it looked like, but you know it was already 90% shaped by the machine and he just finished it out, so to be honest, he doesn’t really know what the rocker was or even the subtle changes in the bottom… I mean, ahhhh, he doesn’t really remember anything about your “magic” board.
Sorry.
Hi reverb, that's the key that I havn't heard mentioned before, the interlude, the damage that they have done to some, whilst others have benefitted in that 10 year period. The more concerning issue, I think is, at a time, around the 10 years ago or so, when they became popular was when master shapers were beginning emerge. Guys that had come through the single/twin fin eras, that were still young enough to know about the present and the future. Some of them kicked because of the machine, some went the other way. The loss , except for personal cases, I see, is the knowledge to be passed on, except in some rare occassions has it been passed on, because the guys that kicked are probably too busy and dont use their planer any more and the other guys, well you will have to ask them, but why would they , when they are struggling and are seeing young guys with bugger all skill take their bread and butter. This business of supposed egos and bad business doesn't cut it with me. You get any industry where the prices don't go up in 15 years and you will need a bloody big ego to keep turning up for work. Why havn't the prices gone up, except for surfers being tight arses, THE SHAPING MACHINE, because there's zillions of surfboards laying around the world because of them, making the modern surfboard next to worthless, see how much second hand boards are worth now? Do shops even take trade-ins? We will all survive some how, but's it's a shame. Oh well, the fish are biting, H.
I’d hate to be the customer that got a magic board and then found out
no one could duplicate the one that got stolen because we lost our data
and didn’t have a backup file.
I can see it now "well, uh, we lost your file, and the guy that
shaped them out kinda remembers what it looked like, but you know it was
already 90% shaped by the machine and he just finished it out, so
to be honest, he doesn’t really know what the rocker
was or even the subtle changes in the bottom… I mean, ahhhh, he
doesn’t really remember anything about your “magic” board.
**Sorry. **
DeadShaper I can not agree with you more!**
**
If some one loss the file to a magic board then the shaper is an idiot.
I have a special model that I have made at least 500 of or not more in less than two years. Once that model was proven by someone who knows how to actually surf I digitally scan the board and keep it in a Master file. Then I have a separate file for every customer that received that model. Every board is numbered and the file is given the number of the board.
For example a surfer tells me I love the last board you made me it was number 4202 it was a 5’10". Can we do it with the same dimensions only make it a 5’11" this time. I then bring up board number 4202 then adjusts adding the 1" requested. This board might be number 4233 and is now part of the data base. It’s no different than keeping Index cards on the various boards one shapes. Each file Is loaded with detail information on foil thickness, rocker deck and bottom, rail profiles, bottom contours, outlines and so on. Not to mention Cubic Volume.
I have other models I do for INDO. For example a surfer that I make about 20 to 24 boards a year may say to me, “Hey can you make board 3907 from last summer that I took to GREEN BUSH?” Guess what? I go back to the archives and pull up board number 3907 pull it up save it under the current board number that I am on an make another one just like it. I have the recorded deck rocker and send the numbers to the blank producer and get the same stringer wood and size as well as the density of the foam. The same glass schedule goes on the board. When a Surfer spends $5,000 on a surf trip his equipment needs to be dependable.
Good File Management is key to successful computer shaping. I cut boards for a handful of shapers. When they say to me do you have that file you cut for Johnny about 3 years ago? I say sure! He then tells me, “Johnny loved that board however he is 20 pounds heavier and instead of 5’10” x 18 1/4" x 2 1/4" let’s make it 6’0" x 18 3/8" x 2 5/16" . “No worries I say”: I pull up the original file make the modifications and Johnny has a board that will fit his surfing as he matures.
I understand all the hate for the machine and yes rightfully so. There are abuses like any other trade. I’ve shaped plenty of boards with an electric planner as well as made many templates from scratch. For the last 6 years I have been deeply involved with CAD programs and CNC technology. I have heard the hate from many however I’m learning to have thick skin. The other day I had a cut that I felt the tail was a bit thick so I broke out my Old Clark Modified Hitachi SB20 and carved on the tail and made some modifications. I spend an hour going over a pre-cut and fine tuning it. The surfer has called me 4 times in the last 2 weeks telling me how responsive that board is. Well guess what? I will scan that board and make a master file. The possibilities are endless.
Sure the market is flooded with massed produced boards. This is were we have to offer customization. Documentation and classification are part of the process. There’s nothing wrong with using intelligence to make a surfboard. Randomly cutting boards on a CNC is like trying to sail the 7 seas without a compass.
Lack of file management is like a CRACK ADDICT trying to balance a check book.
Kind regards,
surfding
Hey Surfding, I don't remember using the word hate anytime lately, I rarely discuss the machines these days and other than mucking around here , I care less. Somehow or other I still reckon you guys that have it together could make magic boards without them, I know I can, H.
Hi Harris:
I was not referring to you at all. Just making a statement as to how to manage files in regards to being able to re-produce a magic board. I personally can do it without my machine. Physically when I get 7 orders of the same board I’m glad I have a machine.
Some are 5’8", 5’10", 6’3", 6’0", 6’2", 6’6" and sometimes 7’0" with various widths or thickness. It takes under a hour to program all the files and send my work to my CNC computer. In less than 3 hours I have 7 boards ready for finish shaping. 3 more hours and the 7 boards are finished shaped and ready for glassing. 7 boards in seven hours. That gives me time to do other things life has to offer. To be a slave to a shaping bay for 40 hours a week is not very fun. I remember shaping 7 boards from start to finish which took two days during one of the best summer swells to hit about seven years ago. That change my mind about the machine. Before that I would tell customers my boards are better because they are made by hand. What a bunch of rhetoric to say such a lie! There is no Glory Handshaping from scratch the same model x 7. Like Bob Hurley once told me “Shape is like Digging Ditches!”. I like designing and tweaking a shape and foiling the rails to put the Magic in it. For me it’s still pure and clean.
I was Hated on by some and still feel to opposition to the way I like to build boards. However I find your statements in general to be correct. Just wanted to show the other side of the evil machine.
Kind regards,
surfding
Ps If you ever come to California come over to our shop. I’ll buy you a great Mexican Lunch. I promise you won’t leave hungry!
Yes all good, Geoff McCoy gets his boards off one now and he certainly deserves a rest and I would too, if I had the work, as Kayu said earlier, it's a double edged sword. The main part I don't like about them is how many boards they have churned out to devalue the industry.I know how hard shaping is, there's no perfect way, cheers and thanks for the offer, H.
Harris it goes for most things these days.
That’s why we need to stay specialized.
Kind regards,
surfding
…hello Surfding, in my opinion, you are missing the main point that many here including me, discussing in previous pages.
is not what “incredible” things machine can do, it s more that we really need it?
I mean, (and Harris, this is not discussed previously too) for ex.: you are making so many files for the machine shape that bunch of boards due to a DEMAND THAT IS/was CREATED (marketing, branding, etc)
and that is very cool from the capitalism point of view (read make lot of money in few days) but I have been asking this question from very long time now: why in surfboards? we do really need this?
we do really need more crappy (not you) newbie wanna be s that go to the machine, put money on marketing and think they are the shite but disturb all the “industry economy”?
I don t need more wanna be surfers in the water
I cannot isolate me and go every couple of months to desert (not so desert now) islands to surf.
We do not need surf schools and all the circus BUT THE MACHINE needs…and that is the main point
Is created, the demand is created, man.
Until mid 90s almost all the boards were made by hand and that was ok for the demand…not ok? well go to a more serious shaper or glass shop; there were many many shapers among the top ones.
so, the qsilver and the others create this circus (may be you really like the circus, and that is not bad at all) to sell the clothes and stuff, leans heavily on surfboards…(and that is what is going wrong) so they need the machine to produce gobs of white clear sanded boards (also creating a demand that the kids think that those are sophisticated Hi tec devices and if you paint a board is kind of retro?¿?¿) to keep the core image “real”
equation:
created demand or desire-marketing-(machine) = mutually reinforcing
abc of capitalism
One of the worst parts about that is the big clothing mobs had to get in on the board making too, zero respect for the guys at the coal face. They weren't satisfied to make their billions from clothes, they had to make boards as well, so some one else didn't, and without the machine , as previously, this would have been impossible. H.
A hand-made surfboard should always be clearly marked "HAND-CRAFTED" by..........it won't stem the onslaught of marketing bullshit , but it will let the "real" surfers out there know that they are getting a 'real' surfboard and not just a copy of the original..........I havn't seen a machine that can "finish" a shape as good as a shaper , but they can produce a foil , ready for the shaper to add some magic..............sometimes
Kind regards,
surfdinhg
Now what we have here is a bunch of guys that agree or agree to disagree and what we should be doing is sitting around a barbeque, drinking beers discussing how to change the world our way, cool, cheers to you all, H. ps, cause nothing is going to change anyway and it's a nice chat with a nice bunch of blokes, that know what ther'e talking about.
Reverb your are a fine craftsman and artist (no doubt).
My focus it making boards that take a surfer were he wants to go on a wave.
There is nothing wrong with making enough money to eat an pay the rent.
If we can do it with something we love I believe this to be called freedom!
Having a little time with family is not a bad thing either?
Kind regards,
surfding
