I am designing a Fish sort beast with inspirations from Nuggets & Lazers and the whole rocker question came into mind. I got to wondering how much other shapers mess around with the rockers that come in the blanks. In the past Ive made rocker templates off of favorite boards and used them. Im thinking the folks at USBlanks have this better figured out than I and that maybe I should just skin it and not mess with what is probably a proven rocker? What sort of adjustments do you make- flatten out the middle some?
My objective is to make a flatter/ faster rocker to work better in mushier waves. Is the RP a good rocker as is? Is it a fast/efficient rocker? Is it middle of the road? Im interested in this blank because I want to make something with a really wide tail around 17".
If it is a custom hand shape, hell yeah, there is
never the “just right” rocker for a particular weight/size
guy so I always modify it based on what I think from
past experience will work for that order.
shop stuff: a relaxed rocker that comes from the
blank maker will work for most people and I’ll go with
what is closest to my custom numbers and work in
those conditions.
pre-shapes: this is the hardest to deal with as I
want the closest to a “magic” board but don’t want to
give away any secrets. If I have a rocker & size that
is magic I don’t care what the blank is but I do care if
I can get the thickness I need for a variety of orders/weights.
I think that rocker/rail is by far one of the most under-rated, under
discussed components to creating a magic board. If you
haven’t read Bill B’s posts on the subject, please do!
As far as your fish goes, if you move your cut point on the nose/tail
up or down the blank, you can make major changes in rocker without
having to “plane” it in. Also, don’t forget that acceleration of the curve
can give the same numbers at the ends of the blank but not tell what
is going on in the middle. I always try to reference from the dead middle
of the blank and measure nose & tail in 6" increments. Hope this
helps!
Never used this particular blank, but your first idea (I think) is the good one: today, most blanks come from the manufacturers with built-in rockers that are already valid as they are. I can’t remember who said that today’s blanks are so good that you could actually glass them without shaping them and that they would work better than finished boards of some years ago, but, all kidding aside, the guy was probably right.
Also, modifying rocker is about the hardest thing in shaping. If you are not confident with it, just skin and thickness-plane that blank and it will turn out a great board anyway.
That is hard question. Depends on the size of board your making. It also is dependent on just about every other aspect of a surfboards design as well as the rider, the construction, the wave, etc.
I’ve found that if I hadn’t kept rocker numbers as well as notes on the boards that I’ve made for myself and others that I would be lost. From keeping good notes and trying to progress my understanding of what does what I’ve gotten to the point that I know that certain blanks are good for certain boards.
My quick guess at that blank would be that it has too much nose rocker for a thicker flatter board over 6’6". If you are planning on making a longer flatter thinner board with that blank then you will have to cut the rocker out of the blank. Might be easier to use either a flatter blank or a longer blank. The longer blanks will have a lower rocker line in the middle than a close toleranced shorter blank and are usually thicker. Another option is a fish blank. They usually have plenty thickness, have wider tails, and have flatter rocker. Either way cutting rocker in is easier than taking it out. I always try to use a flatter blank. If the rocker numbers fall close to perfect to what I’m trying to make then I note the blank on the build sheet. Nothing better than skinning a blank and having the rocker numbers fall perfect!
Without ball park numbers of what your trying to make though you will be guesing. So shape yourself the board, record the numbers and think about what it’s doing while your riding it. That’s the awesome part of shaping that most surfers will never enjoy or understand.
You can alter your rocker just by where you “place” the board within the blank.
The rocker on the Povel 6’8" would generally be too much for a “fish”…but…if you were cutting a 6’0" out of it (for example) you could flatten out the rocker a great deal by cutting it from the middle of the blank.
I usually cut more rocker into a blank.
I don’t think I would attempt to flatten a rocker using any method other than strategic placement.
Just the idea of trying to remove rocker from the middle of a blank makes my head hurt!
The best bet for most backyarders is to buy a close tolerance blank with a proven rocker, and don’t attempt to make major changes. Tweaking it here and there is almost always necessary to get the exact specs you’re after, but major changes should be left to the pros - and even some of those guys find it a challenge.
Also… adding rocker is easier than removing rocker, so it’s better to buy a longer or thicker blank and cut rocker in, than to buy the right length blank and try to flatten it. It can be done, but it’s harder.
And… shifting the board fore and aft inside the blank to get the right rocker is a good idea, but remember that you’ll likely also shift the rocker apex and thick point when you do that. Just keep an eye on it, and make those corrections early in the shapeing process.
Todd, there are plenty of times I get blanks from other labels to hand shape, the rockers at times are far too extreme in the nose and tail, I find I have to knock down the ends to where I am almost to the bottom of the blank.
This leaves the bottom needing to be flattened behind the entry then and before exiting the tail, so yes, quote “standard rockers” do need to be altered to fit what would be a particular type of shape quite often
I though this one would have to stew a bit before it would find some comments. Not the case. Thanks for all of your input which has been very helpful.
I suspected that this Pavel blank might have a bit much rocker in the nose and Surfteach and Synergytodd mentioned that above. Ive departed a bit from the fish concept to go more along the lines of a Nuggety thing. My intention is to make something like the “Creature” below so I need that width that this blank has at the tail. I was also going to try to squeeze as much as possible out of it and figure it will yield about 6’7". Im 220 and this thing is going to be for Florida mushburgers. That said, I want to minimize drag as much as possible so Im thinking about making it single fin in a 10.5 box. Would that work well on a 18" to 20" tail?
Actually, Ive started this process backwards. Let me tell you guys what my wave situation is. Usually Im surfing typical east coast beach break with 4 to 6 foot faces of soft windswell and occasional ground swells of similar size that just make 14 seconds. Generally the waves are not peaky. They are long, soft, but fast peeling walls over poorly defined sand bars. Gotta get in early, turn midface, and start pumping or get left in the dust, I mean mush. Occasionally there are tube opportunities off the drop. So, initially I was thinking along the lines of a quad fish with a nice fast flat rocker. Then my interest shifted to Nuggety shapes with their huge planning area tails that can accommodate my weight and preference to surf off of the tail.
As for ability, Ive surfed a good handful of premier spots around the world and I can hang with the pack. Im fairly proficient at gaining speed after a lot of prior years of pools and half pipes. Ive had the full gamut of boards over the years including thick, middle, and potato chip thrusters as well as fish, fun, and longboards. When I travel to good waves I prefer thrusters and at home I have become much friendlier with foam and width in recent years. Sorry for pulling you guys in different directions. Hopefully that paints a better picture of what I want to accomplish. Please advise!
Will89 - Don’t know if I’m typing something you already know but here’s my take on the close tolerance blanks. You’re going to be planning you’re rocker and foil at the same time. My experience is that there is a little extra foam in the nose thickness, which is ‘usually’ removed from the bottom, and more extra foam in the tail which is preferably removed from the bottom as you adjust the tail rocker ( this hopefully keeps the rear deck strong by not going to soft foam on the deck). So when you custom order rocker you take these things into account so you can reach you’re ideal rocker and foil. This is where a good blank catalog with all the dimensions of the different blanks comes in handy. That blank you’re using with 2 1/8" tail rocker would come out close to 2 1/2" t.r. if you use the full length and foil from the bottom. I find it really helpful to measure rocker of boards I’ve ridden and keep records so I’m more confident about where I want to go when I start a new board and choose my blank. Hope this is helpful, maybe others can chime in about this.
I have a 6’2’’ fish with pretty much the same nose and tail rocker as that blank, 5’’ nose, and 2 1/4’’ in the tail. It works great in knee high to 1/2 oh waves. It’s definately not slow!!!. It was what the blank had as i am a backyard novice. The added bonus is that when the waves get hollow, it still works great.
We’re about the same size. I’m 6’-6" and 210 pounds. I’ve tried the wider tail for the mushy days, and it gave up too much performance. My best junk wave day board is a double wing, 6’-5" , 13" nose, 21" midpoint, 16" tail. 2 3/4" thick. Quad fin.
I kept it pretty thick throughout. It has a beak nose. I tried to keep as much foam in it as possible for floatation. Thick boxy rails with a hard tucked edge throughout. For slow mushy waves, it’s all about keeping up floatation and speed. No need for soft rails to hold an edge, since there’s nothing to hold onto.
It has some kick in the tail rocker.
For me, if I go too wide in the tail, the tail won’t sink in a turn. It will ride really level, never wanting to go off the top. Starts riding really “longboardy”.
With our size, a needle nose won’t work on a slow take-off. When you push up to stand, the nose will go under, you’ll loose all your speed, and the ride is over before it started.
Todd:
First of all, the 6’8 US pavel is not the blank u should be
using for a “nugget” like u posted. You will end up with a
really soft nose & rails in most of the board as you are removing
most of the denser foam in this shape.
Second, I would try to stay in the parameters of the blank, with
a fish style outline, wide nose, wide tail, wide point at middle or
in front by an inch or two if you have already bought the blank.
Third, if you haven’t made your purchase yet, throw the dimensions
into a program like shape3d lite and look at it carefully and then
select the blank closest to the shape. US makes some great blanks,
but it is essentially Clark and if you remove to much you end up with
a soft sponge!!
As far as design goes, I know a guy who surfs a local break that
is very Florida (in Cali) if you get my drift, on a board like you posted.
It is shorter than what you are looking at and a quad. He rips!!!
It is very flat rockered, but has vee thru the fins helping the rail to rail.
Slight concave, slight belly in the nose, nothing to slow it down. Rails
are soft to the fins, then hard for grip. Bennett foam & sanded finish
for light weight. Lasts about 2 seasons, so consider this. Hope this
helps,
surfteach
Surfteach: what are acceptable tolerences the blank and finished board to avoid getting into the soft foam on typical pu blanks? How much can be taken off of the outline or top/bottom before getting into the soft stuff. In the past I liked some of the Clark R series blanks for width and meat but I prefer thinner rails so Im guessing I probably hacked way too far into to the foam when I thinned out the rails. Ive never had a problem but I always use green blanks because blue have always softened up too much on the deck- even on my boards from professional shapers.
As you suggested, Ive been messing around with AKU3000. Don’t really feel like loading up the pc again but I would like to try shape 3d as well. I haven’t bought a blank yet so I’ll match up my aku design with whatever is closest in the blank catalog. A Creature quad sounds intriguing.
Everysurfer: How many inches did you find to be too much tail? Im with ya on the wider/beaked noses. Like the float and tired of doing Marine “diamond” pushups!
This really didn’t work. It would carve O.K. but was too wide to snap a turn. It’s good side was it could catch mushy waves like crazy, and cruise around on them. Just no high performance.
I rode it as both a tri and quad. Fin set up didn’t help.
Will;
As far as US Blanks goes, I would use my old Clark formula of
1/8" deck, 1/4" bottom as the max off a close tolerance blank as
gospel. Short boards will usually remove around an inch per
rail (11 1/2" finished nose dim) but in a close tolerance blank this is ok.
For a “nugget” shape like the board u posted, I would upsize the
blank to get a wider tail profile in the finished board. For example
if I was doing a 6’1" I would be looking at cutting it out of a 6’8" blank.
I would move the template up to give me a wide tail and cut in the
tail rocker. All this hand shaping takes into account that u know
how to measure rocker from the center of the outline, not the center
of the uncut blank! Also, after Black Monday, I was really stoked to
find that the Aussie foam was much harder than Clark and I could
shape out rails a lot thinner than I could using the softer Clark. It
took a bit more work but yielded a better shape. Anyway, if you have
choices as a backyarder, look at the Aussie foams as they can be
better suited to untraditional designs. Hope this helps!
Well, compa;
let me put it this way:
If you ordered a thousand blanks from anyone and you
wanted the rocker to be “reverb fish #1” with a 6cm nose
and a 3cm tail rocker (natural of course) and also shaped
the plug, anyone ordering “your” blank would get the same
rocker. The Brazil foam is glued with rocker for their beach-break
conditions and what the shapers who order the most blanks
need. Back in the day with Clark, you could specify your own
rocker for a specific blank and every order you made would be
glued up & cut to your particular dimensions. I had 3 rockers
on file when they went out and lost them!
Also, don’t forget that in the age of CNC, deck rocker is a lot more
important (read foil) as it leaves a harder deck and you can cut
a variety of rockers from a specific blank. My guy surfding should
comment here! LOL
I know what you mean, your fishes are very classic and it is hard
to get the right rocker (Lis stye) from most production blanks unless
you waste a lot of foam! Felicitaciones,
BKB