How short a board can you ride in large waves?

General Discussion
21

Eric and I actually put in quite a few weekend days together one summer when about 13, surfing the creek at Pedro, getting it together for better and bigger lineups…last time I saw him surf, was that 3x+ day at VFW when him and Peewee made it out and don’t think anyone else did…maybe 84’ or so…?

could always depend on Rodney.  “How was it?”  “I got some great ones” He did go, though…and classic when he got pissed off…

Wawona St…Bob’s first shop…pretty much just a counter out front, some boards stacked to the side, some space in the back…

no one has ever really captured the spirit of that place, those times…heard a few years ago someone was trying to put together a film of OB back in the day using archival footage from here and there…apparently had somehow gotten in with whoever had Fred Windisch’s surviving footage and what not…

And to be real, would have to have John Mineager up front…the first true cove rippa, Mr. Smooth…later to become the Mad Bomber…

had surfed with John when younger…decades later, long after his jail time for the theater bombs, I’m walking down the street in the outer Sunset, and here’s John walking at me.

“John?”

he locks eyes with me, keeps walking, spins as he passes, I turn, stopped, watch him walk backwards down the sidewalk, off the curb, back onto the next sidewalk and keep going until he was just a dot…never taking his eyes off of me, never missing a step…all that was missing was the aluminum hat…lol

 

 

22

  You mean RogerMeidinger, the mad bomber.

  I never surfed with him, ever.  I played tennis with him at GoldenGatePark in the later '70's.  He was a solid top level C player.  He had a daughter by then.  Too many drugs, for too many years.

  PeeWee won the amateur division...or junior, of the PedroPt. contest around '65.  TommyRoss won the overall.  Beat Guptil.

  That shop at Wawona was pretty cool.  We changed at the showroom in the front.  Bob used to charge 8' Sloat, on his 8'4" red railed clear deck single fin pintail, but got too involved in being a shop owner to surf with us on big days.  He'd always complained that we chased away customers hanging out in the sun behind the warm windows after surfing.

  RalphEhni the airbrusher challenged PeeWee to check the level of lam resin in the drum.  PeeWee lit a match.  You can imagine the results.  Kevin, Rocky, and I were in the front room warming up after a small day.

  Strange.  My buds were the MadBomber, the BankRobber11, and GaryKingma....oh and MikeWall.  That's gotta say something about me.

23

lol…yea, Rodger it was…him and Dick Keating, two best surfers around when I first started…

24

Wow, you really ARE old.  Keating was a legend when he made alternate for the Duke, I don't know, musta been '65 or so, when I first started surfing.  He was legendary for surfing Sloat, and Rockaway on some really big days.  He's in NaturalArt riding a steering handlebar kneeboard.  Some say FredVanDyke was the true pioneer at Sloat.  That was also before my time.  And before that, some lifeguards at FleishackerPool, but I suspect they were swimmers catching waves.

Good to hear some guys now using 8' semi guns for 10' OceanBeach.  I always believed the paddling and getting out, the fighting the rip and shifty waves required a much bigger board than even MikeCrook, PeeWee, or LarryMcCraw ever rode.  Larry is the photo'd surfer dropping in on that big left at VFW, the day immortalized by KevinStarr, which mentioned me sitting on the seawall staring at the surfers.  His feet are a foot off the board, and some say you can count SIX of him above him to the lip.  But it's angle related.  Larry is 6'3" tall.  I don't clearly remember that day, as I had a practice session with the number 7 A player in NorCal at GoldenGatePark ....tennis.

So you must also remember SamGregory, RogerKennedy, and some of the Pedro crowd who went to live on Kaui...and our Ambrose, of course.

25

  Hey Tony... trying to get back on track...it's hard.

  You really should look at tow in boards for a hint on rocker, bottom contour, and outline.  You're not planning on riding 10'+ waves, but the basics are still there.

  Narrow is faster on big waves....just less drag and easier rail to rail control, less air in bumps, and YOU affecting the board more.  Narrow also accelerates more quickly in FAST waves, which most bigger waves are.  Wider is quicker in draggy big waves, like maybe Rincon in PR.  But for Shack/Crashboat like waves, narrower would accelerate down the face quicker.

  Most I've seen have WidePoints up around 2", on boards just under 6' long.  Small tails behind the backfoot to hold the board in the water, and to keep the trim nose high.

  Lower nose rocker lately than 5 years ago, as outline can keep the nose clear, and pushing a kicked nose into the faces causes sudden slowing and pitching the rider off....like seen at Teahoopu.

  VERY gradual widepoint, as any "ears" seem to find water and stick, making the board slow uncontrollably.

  And subtle concaves for control, while panel V out the back is the fastest still.

  Kinda like the "BUNKER" boards of the late '60's.  While I was living at CalWesternU surfing Newbreak, Chasms, and Abbs, lots of guys were riding all downrailed 6'x20" boards with widepoints just ahead of center.

  After I came home, I made a series of copies, all much narrower around 18", but with thick down rails, tucked 2' up from the tail into a slight lifted rail in front of the wide point to prevent catching the rails up forwards.

  My boards always had thick flat tails, which lots of local SanFrancisco surfer's laughed at.  But they held in even in BIG surf, as the worst tails for me are wide thin tails with hard edges.  Those "fall out" on late takeoffs, totally sideslipping.

  The thick flat tails allowed me to control and feel the lean angles, while the mass at the rails actually controlled the sideslip effect, having more surface area to allow the water to hold on the rounded sides of the rails.  Hard bottom of course, this before the notion of the tucked egg came into play.

  Lots of guys at Hanalei and Honolua also rode those kinds of boards, in waves up to 10".

  And if you keep it thick, like around 3.15", flatten the deck for more float with the thicker rails, you can actually float and paddle around at a decent speed and get extra pop into the waves with the thick tail.

  Width of tail is critical of couse, and multi fins will help holding power while allowing the board to be banked easily into big wave bottom turns.

26

yea, first rode Kelly Cove in 63’…first surfed in 62’, 12 years old, inside the Princeton harbor…little known fact - before the Army Corp of Engineers finished extending the seawall in 63, there was a large gap open to the ocean.  Swells would come in, a perfect little wave would peel just west of the old Romeo pier, like a micro Cal’s wave, perfect for learning to surf on…DK has photos of the entire harbor area pre-seawall, used to be some really good waves inside what is now the NE corner of the harobr, by the hwy, offshore most of the year.

yea, knew all the Pedro boyz…Rockaway was my main spot throughout the later 60’s and early 70’s…DK was shaping all my boards, turned me on to Rockaway while still a young grom…lived up the valley in Rockaway for a bit, then on the Point, then moved down to Miramar in 71’…

started working in the City in 80’ - 99’., so for 19 years, everything started with OB…get off work early afternoon, drive the Beach…waves, paddle out…no waves, keeping driving south checking the surf on the way home…great time for OB, 8’0 semi’s were dialed in, crowds still reasonable…first paddled my son, now 34, out there when he was 14.  Now he’s addicted to the place…

which comes back to what started this thread, and apologies to all for Lee and I hijacking the thread, just a couple of old salty dogs catching up…after all these decades, seems like the first time that OB has really gotten the attention and respect it more then deserves…some of the locals are pissing and moaning about the attention, worried about the place becoming overrun…well that already happened about ten years ago.

When the swell comes up, however, and it goes DOH and bigger, the crowd will never be an issue.  OB will always take care of itself, separating those who think they want it from those who really do…

27

  Ha ha.. funny ding...

  Rocky, Rodney, Kevin (one eye), and I thought surfing at OBSF was getting too crowded by 1970.  That's when the first influx of SoCal surfers started to invade.  Most were very good surfers, and good bigger wave surfer's who didn't need weak SoCal waves to look good, so the good vibes lasted well into the early '80's.

  Would you believe Kevin and Morey..aka MikeWall, actually could surf some pretty big DOH waves in those days?

28

No problem, I actually enjoyed the “hijack”. It is always cool to hear stories of you older folks about charging real waves, you guys are hardcore. I loved riding Ocean Beach the time I visited, it’s actually my favorite wave in California so far (been there twice). I love the points, have surfed good Malibu, Rincon, The Hook and Steamer Lane but there is something about those heavy sandy barrels that just draws my memory to Ocean Beach.

I remember  being about 1/2 hr trying to get out on a 9’ single fin longboard and it was only overhead and a half. After getting outside, the flotation really helped catching them, got some nice tubes. It’s funny how at one attempt access can be denied after 1/2 hr of paddling and then on your next attempt after catching your breath in the sand it decides to let you in effortlessly. It is such a long beach that there seemed to be a peak for everyone so at least in my perspective, crowd was no problem.

It’s not only the surf but it’s the whole experience of the wild Pacific coast and how it contrasts with the city. The city, it’s a very cool and laid back place with the coffee shops, the Wharf tourist area, the breweries, the architecture. The drive to Santa Cruz with the cliffs to one side and the pumpkin fields to the other, love that homemade pumpkin pie! I am sure I will be back sooner than later and it will definetively be in Winter and I will be sure to pack at least a 7’7".

About my thread, I was just wondering about design, I don’t plan on charging triple overhead tubes on a 5’10" anytime soon ( I prefer a gun). For waves like Gas Chambers (Crash Boat’s North side) I usually ride either a thruster between 6’6" and 7’ or a bodyboard. Hey Lee, noticed you mentioned Shacks, not many people here know it gets good, place was popular in the 80’s but has gotten a back seat to Middle’s. I much prefer Shacks than the later, it’s hollower, longer and the crew is good vibe. Funny thing one of my friend says “it’s always low tide at Shacks”…

29

  Hey Tony...

  Well, being an old timer, I read of the spots during the world contest back in the late '60's, the one Hemmings won. 

  Jacking inside waves always need a different board than outside Sloat, or RinconPR.  Those waves need something for mobility and early takeoffs, setting yourself up in the lineup, and getting out before the crowd follows you to the peak.

  Crashboat and Shacks needs a board closer to what is used at Pipeline.  Something quicker, not faster, and better for 2 paddle turnarounds over 6 paddle speed wave catching.

  I guess you mentioned you weighed close to 200.  Unless you paddle like Slater, that would mean a 6' board of around 19" wide, maybe 3.something thick, a flattish deck for some volume in the rails to make up for lack of length and width, and a somewhat thick tail that pops up quickly when you spiin around and takeoff last second.  Balanced by the need or desire to duckdive effectively.  Boards that paddle well, as you know, usually don't duck dive worth beans.

  Double concave, slight, to panel V is the accepted best bottom shape for fast pitching waves.  You don't need much nose rocker, as late takeoffs burying the nose is a recipe for disaster...the board slows down, but the body doesn't.  So low rocker and a narrower tail that keeps the low nose from catching.

  Tail rocker is another story. Lots make late takeoffs easy, as long as it's smooth, the board will move quickly, more important than go fast.

  I like side fins for late takeoffs and pitching waves.  My Pipe guns were 7'6" and 8'6", both twin fins using 7" fins and rounded pin tails, almost coffeecan round.  Some surfers looked at the size of fins and thought I'd never turn.  But hitting the lip there and roundhouse cutbacks are easy because of the speed of the waves, side fins, and curvy tail outline at the back foot.

  I always HATED thickness under the chest, the old DickBrewer idea.  I like the thickness under the tummy and waist, more thickness in the tail than nose, so the board tips downwards immediately after planing, and you get going full speed much sooner than thin tails with thicker fronts.

  Holding power was never a problem, as 7" side fins on twins was plenty adaquate, and the thicker tail rails forced the water to wrap around a bigger surface, giving a controlled sideslip with forward momentum on the latest takeoffs.

  Well, that's it for theory.  On our last day in PR, we drove to Humacao and beaches SE on the island.  Found some waves, some good wind, and looking forwards to a return.

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Weighed today at 186 lbs and still losing, I have lost 39 lbs since summer, my goal is 10% fat, have lost some muscle but I have also greatly improved my cardio with stair running. Also doing some dynamic apnea training around 3 times a week (on land).

South PR has some neat spots, Inches in Patillas is a really really perfect left reef break and real mellow, fun to ride even at knee height.

Interesting concepts on the boards you used to ride, much of it makes sense (foil and tail volume/shape and fins). I like ideas that go outside the box, they help us think broader and more creatively.

Hmmm 6’ about 19" wide 3" thick… makes me wonder what something like a Malcom Campbell Russ Short Bonzer3 in similar dimensions could do…

31

  I was riding Malcom's Bonzers starting around the earliest '70's.

  In those days, their preference was crowned decks, thin egg rails, Brewer foils, and lots of width in the boards.  I bought 2, rode them barely and gave up on the design for OBSF.  Great for PointMalibu or Rincon, Topanga, Ranch, or SantaCruz.

  GeorgeOrbelion, one of my buds, favored them, and liked the wide tail concept with thin hard edges and crowned decks.

  Just a different camp in board design.

  I liked narrower boards, thicker rails, flatter decks, thickness more back than under the chest, less tail kick, balanced by narrower tails.

  Wonder of a Dun/Mal would shape a board of your dimensions that would float you at all?

32

Hi Lee, well my original question that started the thread was strictly theoretical not that I am planning to order or build a board for large waves anytime soon, I already have a gun for Tres Palmas/Sunset type waves and my bodyboard for the extra hollow stuff. I have a lot of fun reading about board design and get great info from swaylocks discussions. I need to look for the time to practice my shaping skills so that I can someday be able to transfer what is in my mind’s data base to actual foam, I know it will happen someday… About bonzers, thought about it as I heard a story of a friend’s friend riding a 6’8" bonzer 5 egg at double overhead Sunset Beach Hawaii last month and apparently he was ripping it. I have seen some people riding them here in Shacks type hollow spots and they all seem to be getting good tubes and having lots of fun turning those things, just thinking that a thick 6’ could probably be tuned for overhead/overhead and a half Shacks/Gas Chamber types of waves… For Ocean Beach/Tres Palmas paddle power is better…

33

  Well, there's plenty of pictures/posts on 8' bonzers for Pipe and Sunset, most being really narrow around 19.5", so anything is possible.

  And "8'" seems a realistic upper limit for a 6' board if you still need to paddle it out, snake around, and pick off the waves you're in position for.

  Personally, I'd BUY a Bonzer, not shape one.  The concaves are tough to figure, fin placements, and you might end up with something that frankensteined into looking like a bonzer, but something is amiss.

  I would consider shaping a flat front, panel V board, as it's the easiest to shape of all shapes.

  Theory comes into play.  For spots without backwash and windchop, a flat bottom to panel V is the single fastest shape, so it should be preferred.

  The double concaves come in when you encounter chop, and irregularities in the wave face, so they dampen the response, taking away the harshness of chop when riding FAST in bigger surf.

  Single concaves provide superior lift, but needs power to push up onto a plane.

  I think if a board was dimensionally correct, you can apply almost any normal bottom shape and it would still work.

  After years of surfing with GeorgeOrbellian, one of the Bonzer's advocates, I  see absolutely no advantage in having those concaves and wide short fins, hate the overall outlines and thickness flows, and am too cheap to pay for one.

  Almost any somewhat narrow board can make the FASTEST waves anywhere in the world, and I don't see any advantage of extra glide to surf far away from the breaking curl.

  But that's just me.

34

Oh fast....

There was a time around the late '70 when some not quite experienced surfers proclaimed they could make Maalea Bay with Bonzers.

No, they couldn't.  And most didn't go farther than a regular mini gun on that wave.

Another spot it was tried with big fanfare was that zip wave at PuntaAbreojos, the one off the runway of the airport there, about 2 miles E of town. And, NO they didn't go any faster, or make more waves, than normal shortboards....tri fins.

35

no mater how short 

the board can ride a wave better without a rider

than with the immeasurable  pilot.

whatever you make and ride

you are the test pilot and it’s success

or failure rests with only the unquantified you.

make it the best you can and go out an’

blow minds,or eat it  like a trooper…

till you do start makin’ a few.

…ambrose…

the spoon was slow,

waimea guns were slow.

baby guns were slow,

they are all slow

compared to a F-16

heck the waves

only go 35mph.

how short can you

still have fun?

do that.

36

  Wisdom in words by Ambrose....

  The rider is what counts, 85%.

  But a nice 6''er fits inside the car you drive around every day, can be your best friend, or your .........

  It can work from 3' up to 12', it defines your image, makes you feel armed and safe, and if it's one of your OWN creations....

37

I can fit a 6’8’’ in the 64 VW bug

an close the door and not discomfort 

the attractive female passenger.

…ambrose…

girls smell

really good.

38

But do you park said loaded car in the Bario district of SanJuan PR, leave it unattended for an hour or so, then expect to hit Guanico 40 miles away in an hour?

39

Parked car + nice board inside = broken window in PR… Gotta know where to park, crime here sucks big time…

40

Malcom shaped me a custom Bonzer about 5 years ago…guy is a class act, so professional to work with…made me exactly what I ordered…7’8 x 21 big guy step-up for bigger beachbreak…no faster then a tri…certainly not as fast as a quad…smooth on the forehand, didn’t like it on the backhand as much as a tri, didn’t square off the bottom as well…for me.  Sold it to a guy who surfs OB who says it’s the best board he’s ever ridden…for him.

 

you say tomAto, I say toMato…

 

so…How short a board can you ride in large surf?

if you’re Kelly Slater, and you’re in the tropics, surfing a reef with a channel, real short.

If you’re an average decent surfer, match the board to the wave.  Top to bottom wave like Pipe or pitching lip and sloping bottom like Sunset?  Waves coming to you or do you have to chase them down?  Ultra paddler with arms that hang down almost to your knees like Jeff Clark, or stubby little arms that barely make it past your waist like…

On this last swell, you got a pro like Damien Hobgood, who was ripping 20’ faces at Cloudbreak on a 6’4, saying he needed every inch of an 8’4 to surf 20’ faces at OB.

Maybe if Kelly had been there, he would have surfed spectacularly on a 6’4.  Or maybe not.  Didn’t so good out at BIG Cloudbreak on his LITTLE board…basically passed by on most by the time he managed to drop in and control the drop…

so maybe the wrong question…

think a better question would be…do you have the right board in your quiver that gives you the best chance of having the most fun in large waves where you’re gonna surf 'em?