How short a board can you ride in large waves?

General Discussion
1

Checked this article on Surfline and thought slide 32/37 would be relevant to start a discussion on how short of a board is it possible to surf on large waves. Apparently he was riding a 5’11". I know Kelly Slater does it. Jamie O’brien rides a 6’2" at fairly heavy Pipeline. Obviously skill is the number one factor in the equation…

http://www.surfline.com/surf-news/mid-winter-wonderland-swell-story_91023/

I was thinking about bottom rocker today and how it affects the two stroke under the lip take off on short boards being surfed in overhead to double overhead tubes and then I see this Surfline feature.

What do you guys think is better (besides a proper mini gun):

-Continual curve rocker?

-Staged Rocker?

…and what curve?:

-Aggressive nose gradually lowering to a lower tail rocker?

-Lower nose rocker to a gradually increasing tail rocker starting somewhere in the middle of the board without flipping in the tail?

-Same as above but with some kick at the end of the tail?

-other???

For the sake of discussion, lets keep board length between 5’11" and 6’3", regular round pin (not to pulled in), “high performance thruster shortboard” outline (Example: 11"-12" nose, 18 1/2" - 19 " center, 13 1/2" - 14 1/2" tail).

 

Finally, where would you put the wide point in relation the the selected rocker combination?

*Optional: Any other factors such as: (Vs or type of concaves, rails, foil in relation to rocker) you may want to mention into the equation of such a board?

Please focus the discussion on the main varable in question:** rocker**. Although I know that a board is not dependant on a single element but a combination of all…

2

4’ something

there some video I’ve seen of of bruce irons riding a wakeboard in macking porto

but its a tow-at

flat rocker/straight outline/narrow

3

short

 

 

http://vimeo.com/48901597#

4

as long as you can get into the wave, very short. 

5

Waimea Bay on a 5'8": Two surfers rave about the (seemingly) impossible

In: Surfpolitik by Stu Nettle 27 Comments Sun 7th Oct '12
Tags:
1 3 4 2

In 1982 Cheyne Horan had been on the World Tour for six years and was
ranked second in the world, yet despite his competitive success Horan
was beginning to move away from the cloistered world of pro surfing. By
the middle of the decade he was living in a non-traditional commune,
practicing yoga daily and militantly maintaining a healthy diet.  

But before all that came the surfboard experimentation. With Geoff
McCoy in his corner Horan began to probe and push the limits of
surfboard design. In the following article Horan and McCoy talk about
one of their most audacious yet little known efforts - riding a 5’8"
surfboard in 20 foot waves at Waimea Bay. It was a feat that was largely
overlooked by the press of the day but has assumed greater significance
since the advent of tow surfing.

**Geoff McCoy
** I had the idea of riding a
small board in big waves, it was always a fantasy I had but Cheyne was
the one that pushed me to go ahead and design a board to accomplish it.

**Cheyne Horan
**‘Small can’t be ridden in
big waves.’ That was the consensus of the general surfing fraternity. At
the time I wanted to change surfing’s approach and attack on a wave;
when people went down I went up, when they went along the bottom I went
along the top. So when they said you can only ride long boards in big
waves I rode small boards and this is the first one.

**Geoff McCoy
** At that time Cheyne and I
were a potent combination; I had the vision, knowledge and skill to
design the object and Cheyne had the vision, knowledge, balls and skill
to pilot the object. So we went about making it happen.

Cheyne Horan
A 5’ 8" McCoy Lazor Zap,
can you imagine how excited Geoff and I were in the shaping bay? We were
about to change the way surfing in big waves was perceived. Geoff put
everything into this shape. He spent many hours considering what to
design for the mission we were to attempt. It was a whole new experience
to design and shape a small board that would perform in big Hawaiian
conditions. The board had to perform like no other board had ever done
before.

**Geoff McCoy
**I used Sunset and Pipeline
as the two extremes for surfboard design and function, as to me they
represent the essence of pure energy in the form of waves. Pipeline is a
tubular ‘round eye’ with a steep wall requiring a shorter length board
with more bottom curve and a high shoulder, full rail combined with a
soft bottom rail to hold water on the steep, hard surface tension walls.

Sunset is the ‘almond eye’ with a long sloping faces requiring long,
drawn out arcs, and you also travel longer distances to surf the wave.
This requires a board that has a drawn out planshape and flatter bottom
curves with a low shoulder rail.

I had spent many winters on the North Shore studying big wave designs
with guys like BK, Reno and Jeff Hakman. I’d formulated designs that
were working well for the McCoy team, guys like Larry Blair, Grant
Oliver, Mark Warren and Steve Jones, so I felt confident going into the
bay to shape this board.

I balanced out the design requirements combining a flatter bottom
curve for running long distance, a planshape that would turn short arcs,
plus a rail combination of open soft bottom with a lower shoulder off
the deck. I got a blank glued up with less rocker, so I could have those
longer flatter rocker curves for running speed.

The board was glassed heavy so it had momentum and sat on the water
to give it good control in the windy, choppy conditions that it would
need to deal with.

**Cheyne Horan
** Geoff decided to use
longer, flatter curves in the bottom and a little straighter curves in
the planshape. The fin we designed was known as the Finger Fin. It had a
very narrow base area with a long extended tip area. This allowed the
board to run long arcs because the tip area was deeper in the water. At
the same time the narrow stem allowed for easy turning. It was a very
successful and practical design for its needs.

**Geoff McCoy
** The main problem with the
Finger Fin design was strength, by putting the base area in the tip of
the fin it transferred the extra pressure to the tip area. This combined
with its narrow shape put the stem and base area under greater pressure
causing the base to sometimes break. To offset the problem we made the
fin thicker but at high speed the extra thickness would lift the back of
the board and cause it to cavitate. The solution would have been to use
an aluminium fin but that became too much of a project at the time.

6

**Cheyne Horan
** Paddling out at an
out-of-control Sunset Beach the ultimate test was about to happen with
no one out or on the beach. Will it work? Can I catch a wave of this
magnitude? Yes I was scared, the waves were hairy and if I were to
wipeout I was on my own. After a horrendous days surfing on massive
faces with a board that could turn tight and long it became clear to me
that small boards could surf big waves. I was convinced after riding
Sunset, the next step now was Pipe.

**Geoff McCoy
** I knew with what I had
shaped that this same design would ride both Sunset and Waimea because
both waves had big open faces with long distances to travel, but
Pipeline was such a different requirement with steep, vertical walls.
But I kinda still felt confident it would surf Pipe good.

**Cheyne Horan
** One cloudy, windy
afternoon Pipe was 10-12 foot and barreling with only a few guys out. I
knew the take off spot and I got in relatively easy, dropping in
vertically on edge and making it. After a few it felt like a beachbreak
so I started to try and hit the lip. One wave I went up inside the
corner of a tube and rode on the roof almost upside down and turned and
flew onto the face - it was insane. Gerry Lopez was paddling out and saw
it happen, he later said it was “the most radical turn he’d ever seen
out here.”

**Geoff McCoy
**If you view old footage of
those times, to me it is blatantly obvious that Cheyne was a superior
surfer riding superior designed equipment. Surfboards that could go
places other designs were not getting to. It was a great time. It was an
age of innovation for both the top designers and surfers.

**Cheyne Horan
**This was an amazing
achievement for the design and also for myself as it was generally
thought that you do not ride the same design board at Sunset and at
Pipeline. They are completely different waves that up till then required
totally different board designs - this was mind blowing stuff!

I wanted to keep going, taking it to the limit and beyond, so the
next challenge was even greater. I felt like I was making fresh imprints
on the planet, pushing surfing’s limits to the max, being right where I
wanted to be so I paddled out at 20 foot Waimea Bay on this 5’ 8". I
felt like it could be done, riding Waimea on the smallest board ever.

I sat right in the take off zone and the local Hawaiians were very
supportive, they would say ‘here comes a set’ and watch intently to see
if I could even catch a wave. I was sitting right on the ledge and
dropping in just under the lip, riding down the face like it was a 3
foot wave. Going down the wave felt like I was going along a wave, I
would turn a few feet one way then back, or I’d get in a valley, a
crevice, while going down the face and stay in it riding the valley like
a small wave. I was having some great rides, including one where I
nearly went off the lip and did a radical snap in the pocket.

It was overwhelming stuff. I found it hard to believe what we had
achieved on this amazingly designed 5’8". The Hawaiian’s that assisted
me were blown away and stoked and it was a talking point for quite a
while on the North Shore that winter. I felt like I had climbed Mt.
Everest without oxygen!

However the skeptics and powerbrokers of the day kept trying to
discredit most everything we had done preferring to focus on any small
negative aspect they could find rather than credit the sense of
adventure Geoff was designing for and my own groundbreaking
achievements.

Geoff McCoy
To both of us the whole
experience was an amazing accomplishment as we broke ground that had
never been attempted or probably even thought of previously. Yet the
combination of myself and Cheyne was so potent that the power brokers
controlling surfing at the time saw us as a major threat to their self
interests and proceeded to condemn and ridicule everything we were
doing. We must have got up their noses for stepping outta the norm and
thinking outside the box.

If you look in their history of surfing, that is the history of
surfing as portrayed by the Big 3 and the media they pay for, it’s like
we - me and Cheyne - never existed at all and to this day the controlled
surfing media refuses to acknowledge my new advanced designs and
Cheyne’s amazing big wave tow in achievements which are truly mind
blowing.

Cheyne Horan
Breaking the moulds and
challenging traditions always ruffles the feathers of the establishment.
They said we were crazy trying to design and ride small boards in big
waves yet here we are some thirty years later and that’s exactly what
tow in surfing is proving works. When we were doing it back then we
always figured we were way ahead of our time. Fact is, Geoff still is.

Geoff McCoy
It’s an irony that today’s
big wave tow boards are also very short, which as I said confirms our
achievement regardless of the biased but influential few who did their
utmost to cry us down at the time. Those highly opinionated and mostly
ignorant fools now stand tall condoning the use of small boards in big
surf as if they know what they are talking about. An overabundance of
ego, ignorance and jealousy is not a good combination as time has proven.

7

Thanks for posting that Kayu, I couldn’t for some reason get the photos to enlarge, but they are plenty interesting.  Also the comments on the Swellnet page.  A bit of surf history sometimes overlooked.

8

5’5"

9

I think the history of “paipo” has much to do with this topic , but the difference is having the uggetts to stand at this kind of velocity , with not much under your feet…and before anyone jumps down my throat , that is not a critisism of the paipo crew , who are hardcore in all conditions.

10

I think the wave shape is going to determine what can be ridden more than anything.  

11

  Hi Tony...

  It all depends how shifty the waves are, what the current's are doing, and how strong your can paddle to get into the waves fighting the crowd that is surely armed with semi guns.

  I know I've ridden at least 12' OceanBeach with 6'1" x 19" single fins, with no crowd, high tide paddle out, and light offshore winds.  Preferred board would be around an 8'6" x 20 semi gun in those conditions.  The best surfer's at OBSF, riding 6'8" tri fins, would be sitting inside trying to pick off the lull waves and avoid getting hammered by the sets.

  Just got back from PR 2 weeks ago.  Sorry I didn't contact you, as g/f didn't want to surf, and the wind blew 20 of the 27 days we were there, and we brought our windsurf kit this trip.

  That left just W of SevenSeas broke over 8' at least 3 days (with light winds in the late afternoon), and looks rideable even at 4' when it breaks at the very left rocky reef, tiny swells, sweeping around that rock outcropping and breaking heading almost directly W into the little tiny cove and sandy beach off to the left.

  We tried hiking to the Governor's House beach to surf small waves, but the creek or marsh overflowed, and blocked the access behind that left by water up to 3' deep, which we didn't wade through.

  We hiked out to the point E of the LIghthouse, but only saw closeout waves, at any size.

12

Grey Raymond, who died of a brain tumor maybe 10-12 years ago, was dedicated to surfing 2x and 3x OB on a 5’10 back when most of us were riding 7’6 to 8’0’s…

Greg was bright, extreme…looked like the void was going to claim him for a while…turned it around, lived a full life, highly accomplished martial artist, impressive college credentials, research director at UCSF…

The places he would find to ride on that little board, and the beating he took in the process were both impressive…

 

13

  Yeah, I travelled with him a lot in the mid '70's, he living right at the GreatHighway near Vicente St., and we went thru lots of boards together those years.

  We always joked he was reformed from his misspent years, but he was always a time bomb ready to go off.

  "WE": being the crew at Wises at VicenteSt.

  He was a very good tennis player also.

14

I am Glad you had a good time Lee, I need to check out that left, now I know the one you are writing about, I have seen it but never explored it and I don’t think many (if anyone) ever has… Will report on it sir. The waves that comes into the cove looks soo perfect for longboarding, will explore that one too.

That article about McCoy and Horan was mind boggling!

Ocean Beach crew, keep the stories coming. I need to visit San Francisco again, it is a great vacation. Last time I was there with my wife to spend new years, fireworks and party around the wharf was great. Good waves, tasty beer from the local breweries, went to a 49ers game, did the occasional drive down to Santa Cruz to surf the points and we spent Christmass at Yosemite, beautiful! Yea, some people from hot climates love to go to cooler places on vacation jejeje.

15

there was a shot from the recent OB swell with Josh Kerr on a 2xOH wave on a 5’10" IIRC

16

slide #32 here:

http://www.surfline.com/surf-news/mid-winter-wonderland-swell-story_91023/

 

17

[quote=“$1”]

  Yeah, I travelled with him a lot in the mid '70’s, he living right at the GreatHighway near Vicente St., and we went thru lots of boards together those years.

  We always joked he was reformed from his misspent years, but he was always a time bomb ready to go off. “WE”: being the crew at Wises at VicenteSt.

  He was a very good tennis player also.

“quote”

did a Mex trip with him and a couple of other buddies while in high school…bit high strung to travel with…remember the house, apt bld with dark brown shingles…he was thick with Bob Hollenbeck and Kevin Saltenrich, genius savant who lost it all…

hard to explain to someone who wasn’t there what it was like…the waves, the incredible music scene going down…wouldn’t have missed it for the world…

 

18

  Yeah, sometime around back then, we did a trip to Kaui, staying at a brand new house at Pavilons, Hanalei, and got to surf that, middles, Tunnells, why so slows, and some S shore spots.  Greg was kinda hyper, and got into trouble with the Bros at Tunnells, while I got waves no problem with a smile.  Blond don't make it in the islands style.

19

  Oh the history....

  Sometime around '69 or so, Rocky, DanLowery and I headed to Hermosa for a 1-3A contest.  Oh, we didn't get out of the first round, but.....

  On the way back, a new W swell had hit Jalama, and armed with my 5'8" twinfin squash tail, Rocky on one of my 5'6" singles, and Dan on BobWise's 7' single fin, we scoped out Tarantulas.  Driving up to the railroad tracks, we saw maybe 15 surfers checking it out, nobody in the water.  We parked and promptly ran and skidded down the cliff, paddled out pretty dry...it's SantaBarbara, not OceanBeach...and proceeded to get about 10 waves each in 2 hours..not a lot, but considering out boards.....

  Rocky went right, into the walled up and closed out kelp infested section.  Dan and I goof, rode lefts onto the shoulder for an easy back out.

  NOBODY came down to join us, even after we went in.  As we walked up the cliff, guys were leaving or still staring at the water.

  I'd say it was around 12' in the sets.  The whole rest of Jalama was basically one big closeout outside, well past the normal takeoff zone, which accounted for why nobody else was in the water.

  A couple of JalamaBurgers later, we felt much better after blowing the contest.  The contest was 1-3' Hermosa closeouts.

  My twin was 5'8" x 20", 15" tail and two 7.5" fins.

  Rocky used a single with an 8" fin.  For the contest, he was spnning with 5" finger fin.

  Dan used his normal 9" swept single.

20

  Oh, I"m sure some of you remember EricForgerson "Bones" and Rudy Funk.

  Eric ended up on Oahu, one of the big wave crew at Sunset, occasionally joined by PeeWee and some of us.

  That day at VF's about 15 of us paddling out just before a 6.8 high tide, must be the early '70s, as I was riding a 7'6" AipaStinger.  Swell started to rise, and that outer bar well outside the outside bar at Lincoln starts to break, and the S bar is now breaking pretty solid closeouts.  We can see the N bar in Marin breaking peaks, bur not connecting yet.

  Hate to say this, as Rudy and Eric are my peers, and guys I looked up to in the mid '60's.  They started to cry together!  What can be worst than TWO of my big wave friends decide we aren't gonna make it back to shore? Sitting somewhat safe well outside SealRock, and well clear of Pedro Cliffs, we could peak around Sutros into the cliffs along that shore past the two fishing rocks.  Peaked inside of SealRock.

  Lucky for us, some bigger rows of whitewater came thru well outside of us, dragged us inside the impact zone, and all of us made it back in to shore.  Gotta respect the rising swell days.

  And that day Rodney, Rocky, and I paddled out in the fog at S Sloat.  That was the days when Wise was at WawonaSt.  We all paddled out on our 6'8", decided it was too big, got in and switched to our guns.  Rodney's was Eaton8'6", as was Rocky's, and mine the famous 9'11" x 20 gold gun in NaturalArt.  Kevin decided not to paddle out the second time.

  Swell kept rising until we could feel more than hear the outer sets breaking about a mile or two outside of us.  Us sitting outside Sewer break, S Sloat, the Zoo in those days.  I mean like WAAY outside of us, and we'd been surfing outer bar Sloat for a couple of winters already.

  Never really found out how Rodney got in, as he always says he rode a few waves, even when it was beyond reason.

  Rocky get's axed and breaks his Eaton.  Pre leash years.  I remember seeing him maybe 300 yards outside of me, paddling up the face, not making it thru the top, and going backwards over the falls.  Now I was well outside of any waves, so I decided to go for an inside wave, missed it, and got caught in the pit of something bigger than my board or me would like.  Got the lip on the nose, which ejected me upwards into the whitewater for an extremely fun pummelling.  My tummt hurt from the board lifting me upwards and feet first into the whitewater, then going thru the washing machine.

  I come up after maybe 5 rows of white, and Rocky has my board, deathgripping and coughing. He survives a few rows sideways, and I give him the OK to paddle to the one yard line.  I'm fine, just another day swimming instead of surfing.

  As we watched from the Sloat parking lot, the outer bars were just breaking, but a new sandbar well outside the normal outside break appeared around where they put the Sewer line at the cliffs.  Never seen it before, musta been 15-20', and never seen it since.  We retreated to Wises to get haranged for being such wimps, even though Rodney said he got a few waves.