Thanks Sway folk for your interest in my earlier post about this construction method I'm working on for HWS and compsand frames. Here's a photo of the first frame I posted earlier ( http://www2.swaylocks.com/forums/great-now-how-am-i-gonna-glass-it), now with 1# EPS core, tamo ash skins, pinlines and silver leaf. Ready to glass after I put my ebony butterfly-joint inlay in the nose block. Sorry about the image quality and perspective distortion - shot it as the sun was about to set, but you get the idea . . . I was hoping to get it done before the Central FL Fish Fry this weekend, but this flu I've got has brought me to a screeching halt.
Well, curious about cutting some weight from the frame above (yes, with the mahogany nose & tail blocks and perimeter strips) I decided to build another frame the next day strictly from cedar. The first frame weighed in at 2 1/2 lb once the blocks were shaped. The cedar frame is coming in at just under 2, with the blocks yet to be shaped. Also ordered some domestic paulownia to build some frames from, and hope to get them in the 1.25 - 1.5lb range. So far - so good.
Now, I'm looking into some different methods of bracing the deck of the cedar board (HWS), and am kind of drawing some inspiration from an ancestor(?) on this one - Antonio de Torres, the famed classical guitar builder. I'm highly considering using his 7-strut fan brace design and mirroring it underneath an 1/8" planked or ply, vacuum-formed 2oz x 2oz deck . . .maybe the same on the bottom. Here's a photo of the guitar bracing . . .
and the mirrored chalk-on-the-garage-floor mock up I did this afternoon (only thing I had the energy to do all day except for posting on Sways).
(Notice the short horizontal hashes for my inner and outer foot shimmy limits. I had a pretty sweet imaginary session in the garage this afternoon - 30 second barrels, 20ft airs over schools of great white sharks, and a brutal human-boardslide on top of Glen Beck - that's what he gets for hopping on the shoulder like that . . .)
Well, as is the custom here on Sways, I'd really appreciate some input on this bracing concept. Haven't been able to find something similar on Sways or T2S. Any experience with something along these lines guys/gals?
Strategically placed . . .is that an intentionally cryptic suggestion or is this bottle of cherry NyQuil going to my head? Just kidding. I'm not opposed to it and just the mention of it is getting me thinking about the paulownia compsand version of this type. However, on this one I'm kind of bent on figuring out a wooden hws bracing method that would complement the simplicity of the frame - maybe learning something in the process. Ultimately I want to leave foam, resin, and glass boards behind for good, but maintain modern performance and weight standards. I know that's a bit optimistic, possibly borderline unrealistic, but it's my goal and I have to start somewhere.
If your watching your weight wouldn’t a tic tac toe box provide support where needed with less material? Interesting you are checking out bracing methods, I have been also. Remember a guitar bracing system is different for top and back, different functions require it. A hollow wood surfboard is kinda similar… kinda. Do you want your surfboard to feel rock solid??
Hey dlock, I was also considering the difference in guitar bracing top and back, but not sure a couple perpendicular struts would be strong enough - maybe even deflect some flex? I'm hoping to get rid of some of the stiffness associated with HWS surfboards. So far, the cedar frame is as flexible as its EPS foam counterpart, and strong enough for me to hang my upper body weight from. I'm thinking that the type of bracing pattern I use on the deck and bottom are going to factor in pretty big as far as final flex is concerned.
Good pointing out the cross-hatched bracing. I was wondering about that one myself, but worried that the rest of the skin wouldn't be well enough supported and collapse at the edge of the braces (?). Yep, it is definitely going to take some testing to get this right. I appreciate your input and probably will give that bracing a looking into.
I love your built from an Artist stand point. However I think that if you took this type of built technique and replace the wood with High Tech Synthetics you may have some performance built in. I love wood and wooden boards as I do build them now and again (Usually solid). To expect to obtain some kind of performance break through using a complete wood concept is very optimistic.
Your work is really clean and you are a true craftsman & Woodworker.
howdy surfding, would you consider using plant fiber?
certain space flight & race car applications have been developed from lowly coconut fiber, as well as a bunch of other tropical flora like bamboo & abaca. not sure where i read it, but also in bulletproofing? they replenish faster than wood and are plentiful in these parts
Thanks Surfding for the encouraging words. I agree with you on the possibly misplaced optimism in regards to the wood-only builds, also the synthetics approach to this build. I have to admit though, that once I'm set on something I can become pretty stubborn about seeing it happen. I think this is one of those cases - until I run out of motivation or money (usually money is the first to disappear).
Thanks again surfiber for another natural-world inspired take on things. I'm liking that brace pattern and see how it could definitely find a place in deck bracing.
More stuff to sleep on - right after I pick up my five pound bag of oranges .')
hehe the idea actually came from an assortment of bridge-building techniques in a book i found in a cafe.
i guess the idea is to come up with a super-light internal bracing system that simultaneously flexes and counterbalances pressure forces, so that the board doesn’t shatter from constant heavy foot traffic " )
I think that it might be a mistake to build a deck that bridges from rail to rail. People talk a lot about flex, but I don't think you want any flex under your foot. A bridged deck would be like surfing on a trampoline. When you push your foot down on the board to turn you want an immediate response. Having foam or an internal frame allows that force to be transferred straight from the deck to the bottom, which is the control surface.
A while back I was thinking about ways to minimize the internal frame. After building my own HWS board I realized that the frame does not contribute much of the board’s total weight. The bulk of the weight is in the top and bottom skins. If you reduce the thickness of the skin by 1/16 of an inch you will achieve the greatest return in weight savings. Just build a more supportive, frame that will allow you to go with a thinner skin.
the radial pattern illustrated above is an overhead view, with the longitudinal sections touching only the deck & bottom layers, effectively serving to support the deck while allowing flex laterally & from nose to tail. theoretically, that is.
in short, similar to kevin cunningham’s honeycomb system but arrayed radially with 2 hubs for your front & back foot. not sure if you can picture it in your head the way i see it hehe
Hey swied, I agree with you about not wanting the wrong kind of flex and am still not completely opposed to connecting the deck and bottom via the bracing structure. And as you pointed out from having built your own HWS, the skins are what really add up. I found this out last week when running some #'s on using 1/8" birch ply. Looks like 5-6lb on the set. Ouch! I'm looking into using poplar or end-grain balsa ply now, or possibly paulownia planking . . .
The thing that bugs me about the typical fish-bone frame is the amount of unsupported material under one's foot and its lack of longitudinal flexibility once it's 'locked in' with the skins. I'm looking at the fan brace and similar ideas as a way of addressing both issues, but also hoping to achieve a decent amount rigidity in the deck.
Nothing like wanting it all huh?
Well, this is shaping up to be a real humdinger (sp?). Looks like I'm going to have to build and destroy some samples for this one - love doing that, and fortunately supplies the greenhouse with a little heating fuel.
I think I get it. I am intrigued by the honeycomb system using strips of bamboo veneer. Your suggested geometry sounds like it has merit. The key is to make sure that there aren't any big unsupported areas. For example, when you build a chambered board you want to make a lot of little chambers. That way you have less risk of your heal breaking through a big chamber. I think that the best solution for this board, other than EPS foam, is to use veneer strips in some sort of pattern to support the deck.
Woah - stop the presses! I'm not a nationalistic person by any measure, but just realized that "no - mex" seems a bit anti-national to me. Am I reading too much into this one? Ha ha!
