HWS woodwork question

Well I’ve just started cutting out the skins for my first HWS. Man, I’m I glad I decided to use plywood for the first one!! I traced the planshape onto the plywood and then starting cutting the shape out using a jigsaw. The problem I’m having is that I can not getting a nice regular curve. I would like to know what you guys are using to cut your skins out and how to get a straight curve. As my skins are now, there is no way my rails are gonna join up flush. I thought of using a hand plane to straighten out the curve but I’m worried the board will just get thinner until I end up with a match stick. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Regards

Antman

You should cut those skins just like you would cut a plywood template: at least 1/8" outside of the drawn line so that you have room to refine the curve with a hand planer and sand-paper, should the jig-saw blade bite a little bit too much inside or outside…

Of course, some people are so good with the jig-saw that they will cut a perfect curve straight away, but I don’t know many…

Yep, what Balsa said, NO ONE is accurate enough with a jigsaw to not need to use sandpaper or handplane to perfect the curve. by the way…

WHERE’S YOUR PICS?!!!

cutting my HWS stringer with Jigsaw

stringer after finishing with plane and sand paper

good luck


Thanks guys. Will try it that way.

Robbo, I will try to post some pics. My woodwork skills are non existent so I want something half decent looking before I post pics. Guess I don’t want to look like a kook!

Cheers

Antman

Naw, man, not to worry - ya learn more from your mistakes than ya do from what goes ‘according to plan’.

The real trick with woodworking is to make allowances for yourself. Start off with a 1/4" outside the lines ‘oops factor’ and as you get more experience you knock that down to 1/8", then less, and eventually you get to where you and your tools are comfortable together and you’re splitting the pencil line right down the middle regularly.

But that takes time, experience and finding the tools that fit your hand best.

One trick - if you are cutting a piece for the left and a piece for the right, clamp 'em together and cut both together. That way you get a nice, symmetrical pair of pieces.

Or, if I’m doing it, two equally botched pieces- but at least they match.

hope that’s of use

doc…

Thanks doc. While we’re on this topic maybe you guys can answer another question that’s been buggin me. I’ve read how Paul Jensen does he’s boards and he seems to use a flush trim router to do alot of cleaning up. A good example will be to cut off excess plywood once the rails are glued on. Are you guys using a router to do this or just good old manual labour?

Both.

I use a router with flush/trim bit when both of said items are neaby and working, otherwise I resort to a small handplane+sandpaper/block. Router is generally faster- but If you dont know what you are doing, the first coupl tries will definately be in the “Oops” category. Direction of Feed/travel with a router is… well of “mucho importance”

The nice thing with good ole manual labor is that when you make mistakes you generally tend to do them slower and they tend to be lesser mistakes. When electric tools are introduced into the formula, the “Oops” factor goes up about X50… sometimes even more. generally after this the “aw s**t” factor makes its appearance… but thats another story!

Seeing as we are on the HWS topic, I was wondering about something.

I would like to build myself one soon, using a technique somewhere between Paul Jensen’s and the Grainsurfboard guys’. I am wondering about the stringer and ribs. I was thinking about using plywood. Would 1/8" ply be too thin? Better to go with 1/4"?

My skins will be red cedar and basswood possibly with some butternut accents and it will be milled down to 1/4" thick strips of various widths.

Thanks for any info.

OK, I got home from work and gave your suggestions a try. They worked out great. Left myself a 2-3mm gap and sanded down the difference. I remembered to take some pics as requested.

Here are my two skins so far.

I’m pretty chuffed.

Cheers

Antman

Ahmmm-well, I am gonna wander a little on this one, get a mite more general than just answering that one specific question -

See, Paul does indeed use a laminate trimmer. For a lot more than that.

Paul is, by trade, a cabinetmaker, stairbuilder and at the shiny edge of carpentry and woodworking of a practical nature. And he has and uses a different kit than I have and use. Me, I’m basicly a boat carpenter, used to the old fashioned stuff and I use a laminate trimmer with a flush cutting bit for laminates, sometimes, and with a roundover bit in it mostly for rounding over edges on heavy pieces of timber that a commercial fisherman might bang his head into. Either way, we both of us have more time in with laminate trimmers than most people seem to have with woodworking in general and power tools in particular, so we do stuff our own ways.

Let alone other power tools, hand tools, clamps, hold downs, you know, all sorts of stuff. You know, when you use a tool a long time, you not only know how to use a tool and get the results it was designed to produce, you know how to misuse it some and get results they didn’t dream of when they built 'em.

Take power planers. The Skil, the Rockwell, the Hitachi and others. None of 'em was designed for surfboard shaping, some have been adapted with better or worse results, some have been used stock and they work just fine. And of the three I mentioned, I have used 'em all for woodworking on big boat stuff and I wouldn’t buy anything but a good used Rockwell or Porter Cable. That’s me. It may not be true for you.

On a more plebean level, I have several block planes, some of them are low-angle block planes. Including two stanleys of the same model…and I like one a whole lot better than the other. It fits my hand better and I do better work with it. Same way, I don’t use Makita or Black and Decker/DeWalt power tools. They don’t fit my hands and the few times I have tried to use 'em I have done what I think of as lousy work. My power tools are almost exclusively Milwaukee and Porter Cable ( or Rockwell, which haven’t been made for over 20 years) . I do better work with them, they fit my hands and style of work better, or maybe using 'em all this time has made my style of work fit them.

And ya got the Japanese chisels, planes and saws which work differently than the Western types. I will even admit that they are theoretically superior to the Western designs, concept-wise. But I’m too old a dog to learn that set of new tricks, especially when I can already turn out acceptable work with the Western style tools I have spent …lets just say ‘a long time’… with.

Okay, so what does that mean to you? Use the tools you are most comfortable with and can do the best job with. And monkey with the concept some if you have to, to make it work better for you. Paul started building the hollows, well, he designed and built 'em to fit his style, his tooling and what he was comfortable with in terms of material and construction methods. Were I building a hollow wood board, and operating in a vaccum, with no Paul Jensen before me, I’d build something quite different in a lot of ways. I have different tools, a different shop, different experience at work. I’d approach the problem in other ways. Which one is right? Ya got me there… I’d go with ‘both’.

If I was a new/novice woodworker, I’d go with the hand tools for now. Get good ones but not great ones - the Lie-Nilsen planes for instance are silly expensive toys - and get good with them. Get to understand them, and then power tools will be an easy step.

that help any?

Oh, and on the bulkheads in a hollow, I would go thicker than 1/8" ply. While it might, structurally, be plenty strong enough, there is the question of gluing surface - if it’s too narrow, there won’t be all that great a bond, and you could get nasty things happening.

hope that’s of use

doc…

I cut my skins using an Xacto knife, leave them about 1/2" bigger than the final size. Glue them to the frame, and after the glue is set I cut/sand the excess of plywood. Pics soon.

Jack

I cut my template out about 1/8" bigger all around and then use a belt sander to cut and smooth everything down to my pencil line. clamp 2 together and when you sand with the belt sander keep it square to your work.

I put my rail supports on first, sand them down so they are level with the ribs,

THEN glue the skins on.

When they are set I sand down the skins to meet the rail supports.

It all works out…

1/8" ply is great to work with for the frame because you can cut it with a utility knife. You can use polyurethane glue to join everything together. It foams up and acts like a weld.

Thanks Marke.

It looks as though you use more ribs than others as well. What is it? About one every 6" or so? A little closer together at the tail…

Hi. Here’s one woodworking tip that is priceless-

Lose your line and you lose control.

Cut as close to your line as you can but never lose it, not even during the fine sanding.

Quote:
Thanks Marke.

It looks as though you use more ribs than others as well. What is it? About one every 6" or so? A little closer together at the tail…

I used more ribs because I went with 1/8" skins to save weight. In the end I had to put in even more supports. If your skins are 1/4" you only need a rib every 12".

I use 1/8’’ skins and put my ribs every foot. Until now they haven’t collapsed under my weight.

Jack

with 1/8 (or about 3mm) plywood its not so much about collapsing underfoot, than giving enough glue surface for the deck and bottom skins. If the 1/8 ply will collapse its most likely that the lightening holes are too big.

In my mind (theory) the reason why to space the ribs closer to each other is : that the deck where you have your feet planted on (albeit moving about randomly) would be thinner. The span distance between ribs is too great to support the ball of the heel + 85+Kgs at any given moment… 3mm ply edgewise is pretty solid stuff. Ofcourse that said, have yet to buiold and use a board with 3mm ply ribs- but my next board will have 1mm ply ribs suported by 5 x6mm pine “twigs”.

Now the question of having enough glue surface between edge of rib and deck or bottom skins is questionable… IF the whole shebang (board)is enveloped in a healthy layer of glass- atleast in my inexperineced mind. BUt if there is very little or not at all glass the whole board needs to stay together solidly. AND EVEN you use some super duper strong glue that lil 1/8 bead of surface area at the edge of the plywood is very little… the wood will probably tear before the glue fails…

now what is enough glue surface for deck --rib–bottom ? I honestly dont know, I think we’re pushing the envelope here. My gut feelin that 1/8 ribs spaced 12" apart is too little and too far apart of glue surface Unless the deck thickness is ultra thin and also pushing the envelope the space between ribs is not an issue of compressinability. I think Doc earlier broached the subject as well, I think He probably explained it better than me…

I’m toying with the idea of spacing my ribs every 4" (100mms) apart but the actual ribs will be 1 mm ply with 5 x 6mm support struts this will reduse the weight of the ribs a bit (not much) but it will allow me to use a thinner deck and bottom skin (I’m still playing around with a non-glassed board here too…) Yet I will have plenty of glue surface between deck/bottom and ribs…

Sheesh! I sure can explain things half assed… If anyone understood me I’ll buy em a beer!

BUT now… I’m off… will be offline.

I’ll try to report things sometime early august on:

  1. did the board work ?

  2. Did I learn to surf… at all!??

  3. and yes Chipfish… will try to post some pix as well. :slight_smile:

I think if I had glassed the underside of the 1/8" ply before putting it in the vac bag this would not have happened.