OK, I’ve been reading a lot about bottom contours, planing hulls, displacement hulls, channels, concave etc. Do we have any numbers behind the anecdotal experience? Anybody doing tank testing on our shapes? Similar to experimental wind tunnels for model airplanes? Mike Freshwater California
all the tank Guys are down at the tank… all the anecdotal guys post between experiential test sessions …this is where the anecdotes are assembled to try and quantify the data…oral traditions predate scientific method…scientific method has a great deal to do with transcribing information and publishing in the new england mutual admiration journal… as opposed to actual hands on applications for example Kevin breedlove didn’t Build the X 15 he flew it not a model in a test tank… when he landed all the pocket protecter guys were all ears as they demanded he wax anecdotelly about performance at mach2 or was that mach 3 andtheir favorite test pilot was probobly the one that told the best stories that could hold their interest…doc just posted on another thread " 9 foot at 6 knots is planing" go read that… he is talking engineer architect lingo if we pay attention we could learn some credibilizing lingo like that C.O.L.R. from last year…the closest test tank surfing stuff is the finger board guy or that texas swatch hydrolic wave thing…surfing is still deliciously naturally scented and beyond the proclivities of the measurable scientific method although those that wish it to be so are closing the gap and soon your questions will be answered in strings of numbers on a page subject to flawed transcription… ambrose …in praise of the noble savage may the stories weave with the smoke of a clean campfire on a clear coastal night in concert with the pounding rythm of the swell from far away… … oh yeah kevin breedlove got paid for flying the damn thing and Mac Donald douglas owns the rights to the speed of sound x 3 dont try and download it or …?
the thread is how to foil a board its gettin good check it up… ambrose…questing an understandable higher understanding
A surfboards response is so personal. Your weight, your height and how this affects the centre of balance. And then throw in the level of experience, not only of the rider, but the board maker. So many variables, so many waves, so little time.
Good question, Mike. The answer is, zero, zip, nada. No testing, no numbers. Though I should add that once you get beyond rudimentary model - tank testing, as you might do with a plain displacement hull, you’d kinda need your own captive wave machine or a flume and something where you could make several flavors of standing wave for model testing.
Surfboard production is mostly local, people doing up to a few hundred per year. These people cannot afford a tank. Think of the startup costs involved, and the people who might benefit from the testing, and you will know why no one does it. http://www.blakestah.com/fins/
While I’ll agree that a full-sized model testing tank and all the associated technology is expensive, I really don’t think it’s necessary for the basic, rudimentary research and testing that’s never been done with surfcraft design. You don’t need a $250,000 ( plus $500+ an hour in running costs ) Flowrider to get water flow or a 100’ tank and a precision motorised carriage with measuring apparatus on it, you need something with water flowing through it and a way to do measurements. Something like a stream and a small, homebuilt scale and a few rocks to make a standing wave. See http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/Wright/airplane/test1901.html for how something similar was done. Somebody who was reasonably clever could come up with a rig that would do the job just fine, without a whole lot in the way of high tech and expense. There’s no shortage of clever people here, certainly. http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/Wright/airplane/shortw.html
I recall an Australian study and it involved tank testing… http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/mpaine/thesis.html ------------------------------------------- Perhaps Im just an idiot… but the largest tank for testing I can think of is the OCEAN…We need no more than to go to the beach when the swells running and jump in…but most of all you have to trust your own judgement, which for many is incomprehensible. Over 2000 years before christ,Chinese Taoists summarised that matter was made of tiny bodies, that they could sense where there(Atoms)…They went one step further than that and intended to see these bodies in their minds eye and acctually drew what they belived they saw…It turns out the drawings where, dumbell shaped two lobes interconnected by a thinner handle like form…Very similar to modern thoeries without tanks and testubes… http://www.geocities.com/wunderboyi/ninetysixpercent.html
there is alot of tank testing with fins going on nowadays. Whether that involves surfboards w/ fins…I dont know. http://bulletin.ninemsn.com.au/bulletin/EdDesk.nsf/0/82f4d6e4db3e1238ca256d260005f383?OpenDocument
QUOTE FCS " FCS " “Aerodynamics is the key to surfboard supremacy in the water” These guys didnt have an aerodynamic sylable in their vocabulary untill Paul talked to them 4 years ago… I dont mind saying we sent them a board they had it for 3 months they returned it with little explantion of the reason for not taking our offer…The rep who returned it said basicly they were considering the offer but after it was passed around it created some tension and was returned with him stating that they were not to endorse our design in any way or form for fear of loosing large clients…? http://www.geocities.com/wunderboyi/ninetysixpercent.html
Ahhhh…commercialism. Bullshit baffles brains.
T.E, why would Paul Cole send a Fat Penguin to a Fin Mfg and Researcher who makes fins for standard boards?? Whats to be gained, and why would they bother putting your F.P. board without FCS fins into the expensive $$tank time and look over the number$$ ?? I know its called promotion, but neither is Goodyear,B.F.Goodrich and the like interested in New Car Technology they just want to make tires for whoever is mfg./driving autos.
Hi there, The statement about commercialisims is about as MacDonald as you can Kentucky Fried get ! We approached the Australian based owned, American designed fin system company, the Head designer American naval architect Andy Dovell, about purely just using our board as a maniquine not a word said, just sitting there with FCS fins in it. You suggest that I just pay for my own add campaign and build a thousand boards ready to sell…? No Im over the “Im a surfboard shaper/manufacturer/distibutor” Id rather just beat my drum and wait for the Big Kids and they are sniffing dont worry…they are disgruntled that we posted the info to build your own FP, too bad this concept will not be monopololised and we have seen to it by making information open to you all. Infact the instant we show viability I know two companies ready to “enterprise” into the unknown with the whole approach to enhance and evolve surfboards to their most functional level in areas of effects on the enviroment, durability and performance. Somethings got to give, and we have the record for the long haul. Show you, prove it to you is not my goal Im just the messenger the rest you guys will do. If I make money, its because you freely gave it to me… http://www.geocities.com/wunderboyi/ninetysixpercent.html
And that, you see, is why the surf biz is quite happy to stumble along with fads, hype and fashion instead of solid engineering and real facts. If there’s no real tests, no real numbers, anybody can claim their (insert waterfowl here) or ( insert name of pickle-stabbing utensil here)will do anything, outperform everything, and there are going to be those that’ll believe it.
Dont belive me, belive the guys that are building their own FP and testing them, Im helping out two guys right now, they are genuine and respected credible shapers in their regions…As I said you will prove it… not me. http://www.geocities.com/wunderboyi/ninetysixpercent.html
anyone put any credibility into this T. Emmerton character (his previos incarnation). Last Summer, he had the posting style of a 11year old internet trickster with a thread bare personal website and promoting himself as the designer of the Fat Penguin, and wouldnt even mention Paul Cole. Now his website is considerable better, sounds somewhat adult like, but I still think he’s laying it on with a trowel. What do you guys think.
Science and poetry have much in common. Done well both require a close observation of nature. Doc and Ambrose were in process of developing a fugue in the thread below using very different but melodic language. Unfortunately,it is about to run off the page. Patrick
Tank testing… My background is engineering. I’ve been around lots of radical equipment and have worked on gnarly supercomputers which can model (literally) every molecule in any theoretical flow regime. I’ve seen the guy’s Masters thesis in West Oz. No one has dealt with the curvilinear accelerated medium that is unique to a wave. To date there is no tank that mimics the acceleration up the face of a real wave as the energy pulse interacts with the seafloor and compresses the wave upward while simultaneously decelerating the bottom portion of the wave. Meanwhile the water column rises (accelerates) upward and also starts to surpass the rest of the wave. The top of the wave throws toward shore and is getting stretched apart and it thins, which is another kind of acceleration. These accelerations are also compounding (ie. the accelerations are accelerating; also known as ‘third derivative jerk’ (Jerk is the real term for this). Anyway, the stuff gets so complex yet the act of surfing is so simple. With access to all this theoretical information, what I did a few years ago was to set out and test some boards. In one year I made 62 boards for myself. I tested them empirically; that is, go out, try one for a couple of days, make another. What I have learned is invaluable toward understanding what aspects in a board are associated with certain “feel” results when riding. Feel is subjective so what I like might not work for the next guy. So basically, I got wiser, mostly fine tuned what I already had, and to this day I still test a crazy board every now and then. The bottom line is that nothing huge was discovered, I just refined; that’s testing. NOW, with that said, the hugest developments will typically come from the geniuses like the ones hitting this site; maybe randomly saying “what if?” and making the thing. You can’t be afraid, you might get harrassed. A radical departure from status quo will get the biggest gains (and big failures). The best test tank will be in the shapers’ mind as the imagination interacts with an idea/concept. Someday, someone will finally render the high performance tri-fin shortboard obsolete; and it will most likely come from someone’s garage…
thats is the best response to all these tales and talks! your knowledge on the subject must be frustrating at times. as i progress i find the more i learn the more i dont know and the more i want to know! i did similar to you when i started shaping too! i made around 30+ boards for myself in the first year trying all kinds of things both radically different and subtle. hats of to the home designer and the radical thinkers who try to create difference or (excuse my selfless plug)DIVERSITY! p.s. the fp guy good on ya, however maybe the guys here would prefer if you plugged away at the retail market and let them designers here create their own crazy dreams http://www.feraldave.com/sprays.htm 