Hi, some of you might heard of the Hydroflex technology that was invented by some german shapers. They claim to improve surface bonding between laminate and core by some miraculous methods. A few years ago they moved their production to the US and started shaping for …Lost and other brands. Recently I stumbled across the patent that is available online and might be of interest for you guys. I haven’t yet read through it, but I’ll write a small summary soon.
What I’ve seen from Hydroflex is XPS / EPS boards that you inflate for different stiffness. Repaired several, what a joke. According to those who tried it, even worse joke. Just what’s needed on an XPS / EPS core, an inflation valve and some hot sun.
I’m not so amazed by the pump for altering the flex, but i want to get some inspirations for my next xps-build, they have some good ideas to prevent delamination.
I might worry about adhesion if I was using XPS, but with EPS I just don’t think it’s an issue. I think most people who glass EPS boards use a water soluble spackle and those boards seem to hold up just fine. I use an epoxy/microbaloon slurry to get the epoxy/epoxy bond but most people say that’s unnecessary. These boards will get dinged and waterlogged before they’ll delam. If I was really worried about it I’d take Huie’s advice and use a layer of ultralight nonwoven in my lam to get the adhesion.
As for pumping air into surfboards I can see that working to the extent the integrity of the finished/ sanded glass job remains perfect. No pinholes anywhere, no open weave, no dings, no cracks. Over the life of the average board I just don’t think that’s realistic.
I repaired my friend’s hydroflex supercharger (EPS). The board is light
because it was lightly glassed, and the vacuum bag lam is too thin, so it
dings easily. The “enrooted fiber” seems more like a business choice
than an actual technical improvement.
The pressure in the board
inhibits water getting in the board when dinged, which is a good thing.
My mate like this board which satisfied him, so it’s a good product,
although a bit expensive here in France.
I see and repair several kinds of epoxy surfboards, windsurf boards
and kite boards, and the only tech that really impresses me is tufskin
from starboard: really strong and still light.
Sorry for my frenglish.
So how exactly does this so-called “3D Glassing” technique work? Anyone know?
not exactly, but something like:
grooves on deck lengthwise, that make the lam stiffer
glassfibre shot into the blank, possibly done before in airplane wings? this is to enhance bond
bufo started vacuuming PU blanks, and soon found it that delams happened easily...
then he use EPS, but still had delam problem
then he used to make/drill holes in the board, and let epoxy pour into it, these strains broke too
then he found the solution i guess by shooting the fibres [and some epoxy] into the blank
couple years back, he further tuned his board by using a vent...
i stopped surfing the boards long ago because i broke everyone i ever had, only the PU held up over time, funny thing eh?
i would like to try a new one, 6ft1 * 19 1/8 or so, in the 2200-2400 grams weight range, not much lighter...
I’m going to do some home brew hydroflex tech on a couple of boards I’m working on that are being bult using a combo of eps and xps for the cores.
Here’s a picture of the hole “moshing” tool I just built to allow me to punch the small holes into the blank @ 1/4" deep.
The holes will be filled with a mixture of milled fiberglass and epoxy.
VanHelsing.
If that soil aerator is for improving bonding on XPS. Don’t think it will help much VH. Very few holes relative to total bonding surface. PU and EPS have lots of small pores over the entire surface for bonding.
I think you’d be better off with 40-60 grit sandpaper. Many small grooves, peaks and valleys, will give much more surface area for bonding than a few holes.
Just my $0.02.
Absolutely bgsurf, I couldn’t agee with you more.
Although my credibility here is perceived as low, I’ve had experience building boards with both eps and xps since the early 8o’s.
For the record, I’ve only ever done one hand glass layup in my life. It’s vacuum layup or nothing for me.
The rough sanding technique you speak of is pretty much manditory with xps usage.
What I’m doing is going one step beyond what you suggest with the addition of the deeper vertical milled glass or even carbon /resin structures…
My thinking is : I’m not doing it for bonding reasons… The rough sanding and materials like nonwoven fabics of nylon or polypropylene look after that. That being said I have test panels that prove otherwise and show that the holes DO indeed aid bonding especially on xps. Try thinking of the additional holes as roots of a tree, or the hook side of Velcro…
I’m looking at it from a skin thickening perspective to aid in reducing heel denting and slightly increasing the overall outside skin density to a generalized 1/4" depth…
Consider it like the “bed of nails” act you see at the circus or a magician’s show.
My theory is it’s like applying 1/4" core-cell skins albiet with much much less overall strength, but with the improvement of retaining the flexibilty that hard foam skins steal from the core.
Have you heard of Hydroflex Natural ?? It’s the application of the Hydroflex bonding tech to standard PU foam boards with non of this air pumping nonsence. I don’t think Hydroflex has done this primarily for bonding reasons but for overall durability reasons with the added bonus of an improved glass to foam bond.
While my idea is probably not the same deal , being just the hobbyist builder that I am, I’m really not that concerned with the “correct” or established methods of doing things, or bothered if I get flamed for my ideas… I’ve explained my intentions and that’s as far as I can elaborate at this time.
VanHelsing.
P.S. I’ve done small test panels using 1/8" pvc stringer material and 1" thick xps sheets glued together using 5 different types of glues, primarily in search for the best glue for this structure… Then I’ve gone through the difficult struggle of pulling them all apart. On all the samples both the xps as well as the 1/8" pvc stringer were roughed up with 40 grit sandpaper. Some of the samples had the “moshing” holes added to the xps in addition to the rough sanding, others did not… The results were not unexpected but did put a huge smile on my face.
That’s all I can say on this topic at this time. And at that I’ve said way too much.
VH
show us boardporn!!
Wouter, I hope your request for “boardporn” is souly out of motives of interest, and not an attempt to imply that I’m merely talking out of my ass?
I’m not crazy about showing build pictures or sharing my ideas here anymore. Mainly because I don’t have time for the flaming rhetoric, but also when I have in the past, some other dude uses one of my ideas, shows some cool pictures and then does the “claiming” of the tech or idea.
Just this once to prove I mean what I say about this construction:
Here’s a couple crappy picture of the “box beam” stringer sub assembly of one of the boards I’m currently working on… You’ll see the “moshing” holes in one of the photos all sub assembly parst have been rough sanded and are within 1/8" of the planned deck foil contours. There will be 2 boards built using this construction, but at the moment all I have is the pre cut stringers and xps “box” stringer panels. The remaining outside core of the boards will be 1.5# eps which are also already cut and hotwired to approx deck foil… I’m glueing and clamping both sets of the box beam sections together for both boards this evening then adding the outside eps panels afterwards.
Note: The holes in the xps stringer section are not all the same depth and are quite random and numerous, where the skins will be neater evenly spaced (as possible) and of uniform depth.
Also note ( @ bgsurf) that both parts have been pre sanded then cleaned of any residual contaminates using 99.9% pure isopropyl alcohol. The alcohol treatement improves the bonding of plastics with epoxies and other glues from what I’ve learned. It also cleans any possible lubricant that might have been left on the xps from the extrusion dies.
As these boards will be formed on a vacuum table , the boards will require very little planing, only the rail bands, very little on the deck and bottom only needs contours like concaves and channels. The Dims. as shown are: 5’9" X 2 1/4" thk. approx 4 1/2" nose rocker, approx 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" tail rocker…
All the sub assemblies will be glued up on a vacuum rocker table etc, etc…
I have specific structural reasons why I’m building using this “box beam” stringer section but that information will have to remain confidential unfortunately… I think the few people here who know my real identity will understand why…
VanHelsing.
That’s all for now… Less talky, more buildy…
vh
just want to see nice boards, all this talking goes in and out nearly at the same time
the coil thread has a few nice new boards too, did you see them? wild stuff!
i have been a member of sways for over 8 years, so it surprises me that you think i build boards seriously or claim anything, never have! oh yes, mistakes!
cheers
any finished boards??
Nothing I said was directed personally at you Wouter, sorry if it sounded that way.
I’ve been asked to show pictures here in the past, but not for the reasons you’ve given me above.
Finished boards? Yes… Although I have no other pictures to show at this time.
I’ll try to get these two into full sized and outlined blank form and post them up then. Then once again upon completion.
Yeah, I saw the Coil boards. Beautiful work there, some of the nicest boards out there IMHO…
From what I’ve read their skins are thicker also but are done with light weight hi tech fabrics and epoxies.
Vanhelsing.
VH. No matter what you post, somebody will claim it was done in the late 50s and early 60s.
I think the Hydroflex tech, is a valid design idea, so with that in mind I’m building some boards using my interpretation of that idea.
I stake no claim to any of it, I’m purely having fun adapting builds to come up with a home builders version of what I believe is a good technology.
VH.
** wouter remember we went through all this yrs ago on compsand **
anyone playing with that oldtech is way behind
amazing these johny come latelys have found the internet?
** as i said before boring meander**
Here’s a picture of the thin rocker table that I built today and it will will be used to glue up the “box beam” stringer section
I’ll be using this as a mini vacuum table so that I can guaranty that the stringer is straight by using an additional clamping “fence” (not shown) as well as insure the contours of each individual part are perfectly even, are square with each other on the bottom , and follow the desired rocker exactly.
Last “porn” Wouter, as this is not my build thread and I’m getting off topic.
Ha,Ha,
Awe shucks Huie… Come on now … I thought all that mutual appologizing had smoothed things out between us… Too bad… I was sincerely going to give it a shot…
Ok… So you’re saying Hydroflex Technology is “old tech” and worthless and any variation on that theme is also ? Yet you feel your boards, prancing around showing off their dopey fishnet stockings, are so mind blowingly radical ??
Next you’ll be saying how your wood veneer skins are the only real viable material to use as skins… Talk about singing “old tech” tunes eh ??
Come on man, Gives us all a break…
Why do you have to always come on here and mess up a perfectly good thread just because I’m involved in it… Fer Christ’s sake!! Can’t I have any fun without having to look over my shoulder for you and your pals??
Don’t make this one another Cerex thread…
I really don’t care if you think my ideas are old, stupid or whatever… I’m having fun building the way that suits me… And there’s sweet bugger all you can do about it !!
My friggin’ hands are shaking as I type this… You’ve always pissed me off more than any soul on this forum…
Now the friggin’ thread is off to the dungeon, simply because you (and now I) can’t keep a civil tongue in public… Damn shame !!!
VanHelsing…
okay children… do we need to separate you two?