So I am sold on bills broom tail design. I built one and have surfed it in knee high waves up to a few feet over head and I really impressed with how well it goes. I know the concept of the fin design will translate well to other shapes and I want to know how it goes with a smaller board but one I fully know the ins and outs of as a standard single fin.
I have surfed this board for about 5 years in almost every condition - it’s also the only board I own that I did t shape myself - Knee high mush, 6ft barrels. Most importantly I know it’s limitations haha
Had Dave Town make up a set of fins that are the same template as the fin I have ridden in it for years ( I have tried many but this one works the best) 7" yater Classic - asymmetrical foil - flat facing out.
I sunk a few new boxes in and will be looking forward to a direct comparison in fins and how this set up changes things.
Fins should arrive in the mail tomorrow and testing will begin. Swell looks good all week.
Well, the next obvious question is; Did the fins arrive yet? The SoCal regional area is predicted to have some large surf for the next several days. Perfect time for a trail by fire, eh? Bear in mind, this concept dates back to 1970, right on down to the asymmetrical fins, with the flat side out. Single foiled fins didn’t show up, industry wide, for another few years yet. Some of the newer members/lurkers on Swaylock’s should track down the thread ‘‘Bill Thrailkill you owe me a new surfboard’’ by afoaf, for some background perspective. Back to the fin question. Whatever fin position was ‘‘normal’’ as a single, is where you should position the paired fins, for the most accurate evaluation. I know you know that, and this comment is for those new to the concept.
Yes. Fins arrived yesterday. They are spot on to the original template and the foil is great.
I will post up some photos of them later tonight.
They will be in the water over the next few days.
Board is 6’4" x 22ish x 3 - flat bottom - rounded pin " sting"
Soft rail up top gradually transiting to a more down rail with a harder edge as it hits the tail
shaped by mike minchinton - board was a total bro deal from a local glasser who was in need of $250. - I was just getting into surfing at this point and really had no clue of the cost involved with making a board.
Very interested to see the test ride reports. I’m setting some boxes in a board I have with the Neal Purchase Jr. Duo specs, and I will report on that as well.
Phebus - keep in mind that while Neil’s set up may look like Bill’s - it is not the same in design or theory (at least that’s my understanding). none the less… Look forward to your findings.
Ok … So I’ve got it in the water twice…yesterday afternoon at the warmest spot in OC and this morning in Newport. - both sessions the waves were kinda wonky and had a lot of texture.
It was instant night and day as to how the board feels in the water. It took me about 5 or 6 waves to figure out how I needed to surf it but once I did…
the first couple of things I noticed instantly was the ability to generate speed and the responsiveness of the board. - it was a head trip for a few waves because I’m so used to surfing this board a certain way and knowing exactly how it’s going to react and now it’s been supercharged haha.
Still kinda processing … Can’t wait to get a few more sessions on it. I
I made a Thrailkill double several years ago. Couldn’t find anything negative about the fin setup. The rest of the board had lots of issues. I recently made a NPJr version and I’m riding it as much as possible to see how this works. My only negative has been when the fins were way up, the board wouldn’t hold on hard turns in solid overhead waves. I’ve since moved the fins all the way back and it seems solve that, but I haven’t had it in the same kind of waves yet. I did this this setup figuring I can add 2 more fins and make it a quad. With Bill’s setup, you wouldn’t be able to do that, but then again, maybe you wouldn’t want or have to. That’s been the only reason I never tried it again.
If someone could come up with a box that allows movement from left to right and back and forth, it would open a whole world of possibilities for experimenting with fin locations. Be cool to have a longer box on the side that allows you to have the fin close to the rail as you slide it forward or back.
I think the next experimental fin setup I’ll do is 3 fins all in line across the tail like Greg Griffin does with his version of the Mini Simmons type of board, but on a mid size egg. Be like the Liddle 3 fin or Parmenter’s Widow Maker but all 3 fins would be the same size.
Something I’ve learned from the last 10 years of messing with boards… single fins through 5 fins, 5"-10" shortboards up to 8’ + midlength eggs, various rockers from extra flat to full gun type.
Fin location will make a huge difference. Putting fins out on the rail allows for a totally different style of surfing. It gives you more power from turning, it gives you acceleration. It’s different from fins near the center of the board. Singles, or the way bill does his double work really good, but it isn’t going to accelerate out of a turn, squirt out of a turn the way it will when you have the fin on the rail.
There’s a good article in the surfer’s journal about a board Greenough made that Dave Rastovich rode in good cloudbreak. Talks about letting the board ride the wave and not making the board work to ride the wave. With single fins, you flow with the wave more. You use the wave’s energy to maneuver around. Multiple fins allow you to generate energy by turning. I think this defines the difference between the older generation and younger generation. With singles, we learned to ride the wave and play with the energy there. Multiple fins let the surfers do things we couldn’t easily do because you can make the board move faster by turning. They also allow you to have sorter wider boards that won’t spin out when you turn extra hard because there’s always (usually) a fin in the wave.
There are two things that SHOULD have stood out to you. The brisk entry into turns,followed by the speed out of the turn, and the ability of the board to tap the wave energy to attain higher speed. That was the most impressive to me, when I first added extra boxes to a single fin board I’d been riding for years. The improvement, on all points of performance, was dramatic. It sounds like you may have had a similar experience. Make a point of riding the board in the upper 1/3rd of the wave, next time you surf that board. That fin setup has the uncanny ability to tap more of the wave energy, which has caused others to describe the change in board performance, as having an afterburner.
Bill what you described is what I meant by generate speed and responsiveness. I can attest to its love for the upper section of the wave. This combined with the responsiveness (ability to turn ) are what threw me for a loop on the first couple waves… I was really not ready for the turning as I went about a turn as I normally would on it… Drop my weight back some and lean heavy. Doing so put me on my backside… It seemed to require a more taimed movement. Couple that with a few pumps and it was game on.
Also sharkcountry… Your spin out may also be do to your fin template. Maybe want to change it up for large waves? I have yet to experience that on my other board which I have had out in a few feet over head. Also, not sure if you have seen them but the broom tails that I have seen of bill’s were all quads - the double single with two smaller tailer fins. - not a quad in the normal sense of the word - but 4 fins none the less.
The reason you ‘‘went on your backside’’ was that when you cast your weight back to stay with the board as it slowed in the turn, the board DID NOT slow down (due to fin stall) so you end up cartwheeling off the back of the board. I did exactly the same thing, first time I rode the setup. It feels like the board accellerates, but in fact it just doesn’t slow down. You have to lean to where the board will be, not where it just was. Quite an eye opening experience, eh?
Update for those interested… This is a reply to a pm about the board.
I have had it out about 5 or 6 times since my initial post and needed to do a bit of fin adjustment. I started out about center in my box ( about where I usually have it set) and it was a bit too loose for my liking. It seemed as if I needed to turn using just my ankles and keep my body weight at a stand still. And while it was super responsive it never lost hold in the wave face which was a trip. In my experience once a board is that loose it starts to skip which it didn’t. Anyways, more to the point haha I ended up dropping the fins back about 3/4in and it feels really good. I am able to really lean into my turns and use my weight to my advantage.
When the size increases around my house( Newport) it usually means your going left ( backside for me) which I love but we don’t get much open face. I am gonna try to get down to trestles or church next weekend for some more testing and hopefully some rights.
It’s interesting comparing both boards with the twingle set ups. on the board I just modified, I knew it rode well before and feel now it has been amplified in it’s good qualities. The previous board however I didn’t really think would work all that well and it’s amazing. I think the width in the tail is where it all comes together.
It seems that because the set up allows for so much responsiveness you can keep the tail wide for speed and paddle power but ditch the “v” that is most people’s solution for getting a wide tail to turn (and In my experience cause for a slower board).
