Is there such a thing as license abuse

General Discussion
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Since this seems to be the place to tell your copying stories, here’s mine. One is just funny, the other is one that affected me.

First, the funny. A long time back a huge east coast retailer got the idea that they could have cheap boards made in Taiwan.

They sent over boards for them to copy, mainly for the shapes and artwork. When the container of product landed, they discovered

how good the ‘‘copying’’ was; instead of the shop’s logo, all the boards had duplicates of the ‘‘sample’’ boards decals, just plain

bootlegs of some major-label stuff… To their credit, the retailer had (just) enough ethics to want to fix the mistake, so they contracted

a local boardbuilder to do cover-up artwork on the whole batch of boards, resulting in a windfall of work for him at great expense to

the large retailer.

One of my personal experiences involves the same retailer, who a few years ago told me in a somewhat matter-of-fact manner

that they had taken one of my fishes and had it cloned in China. They either thought I’d be flattered or knew I couldn’t/wouldn’t

go after them legally. Or maybe they figured I was too stupid to care.

Yep…just ask the guys that own global.

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Hey Ken… Everyone that makes performance chips makes the same (kinda) 6’2"… every shaper is influenced by what others are doing… every shaper inspects boards by other shapers… but I guarantee Rusty didn’t scan someone else’s 6’2" to make his.

Sure you can get away with all kinds of stuff, but morally it doesn’t mean you should. Saying that it’s not the same because you have to sand it and put your logo on it, is like saying it’s not copying if you don’t do that good of a job. CIs are cut the same, sanded by any one of many finishers, glassed at one of many glass shops… and still all considered true CIs. At what point do you draw the line?

Any shaper who’s boards I ride must surf at least almost as good as I do (I think I rip for an old dude) and have the knowledge and confidence to plow foam. Any experienced shaper can make a board without scanning someone else’s.

In the case of the shop owner - he was just trying to get around paying CI… he flat out said it. That is clearly putting profit over morality.

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Kendall

I agree that Rusty didnt do any copying.

Them guys are pretty much at the same level of board design knowledge and dont need to copy each other (I think).

I have personaly seen this copying thing

but

Im sure you must have been floored when that guy told you what he was up to

puting myself ,visualy, in your shoes, I too would have been appaulled

but ,one question,

why didnt you rat him out to Merrick?

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Hey Ken… Everyone that makes performance chips makes the same (kinda) 6’2"… every shaper is influenced by what others are doing… every shaper inspects boards by other shapers… but I guarantee Rusty didn’t scan someone else’s 6’2" to make his.

Sure you can get away with all kinds of stuff, but morally it doesn’t mean you should. Saying that it’s not the same because you have to sand it and put your logo on it, is like saying it’s not copying if you don’t do that good of a job. CIs are cut the same, sanded by any one of many finishers, glassed at one of many glass shops… and still all considered true CIs. At what point do you draw the line?

Any shaper who’s boards I ride must surf at least almost as good as I do (I think I rip for an old dude) and have the knowledge and confidence to plow foam. Any experienced shaper can make a board without scanning someone else’s.

In the case of the shop owner - he was just trying to get around paying CI… he flat out said it. That is clearly putting profit over morality.

What does surfing ability have to do with shaping ability. Obviously experience should be a factor…but guys that rip are not always the best shapers.

As for copying…a host of elder shapers gave us most of the popular planshapers in use today. Most without any credit. Merricks’s look no different and are little different than any other pointed nose shorty. Unless you count logo and thats just marketing. This entire industry is built on copying other folks designs and following the herd. Period. The unique stuff has always been the exeption. IMO. Just like all the major clothing lines is how it is with modern shorties…switch the lables and they all look the same.

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Jeez solo… for being such a vocal proponent of keeping our sport (religion) pure, your reaction surprises me.

Sure, everyone is influenced by what the others are doing… even (especially) the best shapers look around to see what’s going on outside their shaping rooms. The line I draw is when a shaper (using the term loosely here) takes someone else’s board and SCANS it. The interpretation part just left the building. I’m not saying that you can’t get away with doing it… just that it’s wrong.

As far as wanting my shapers to be good surfers… I know that being in a wheelchair doesn’t mean you can’t build the fastest race car, and not being able to surf doesn’t mean you don’t understand fluid dynamics… but surfing for me is not purely about function. It’s my religion. I want my pastors to walk the walk.

I’ve spent a lot of time in the shaping bays of some of the world’s best shapers (and also of some not so great shapers). A common trait among the best is that they’re thinking about how the board is going to surf… over how it looks. A board that’s going to surf good is going to look good too. Function is beautiful.

We’ve got a guy named Matt that finish shapes for us. He’s young and he rips… RIPS. When he’s shaping you can hear him making “woosh” noises… like he’s riding the board. He’s not thinking - “I gotta get this transition smooth”… he’s thinking - “off the bottom, snap… off the top”. That translates into the finished board. I feel good about riding those boards.

I surf because of the way it makes me feel.

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To add on to Kendall’s thoughts first off I have to say/agree if it ain’t your shape you don’t have any right to scan it and make boards. Even one. Why anyone would think differently is beyond me completely. Sure I don’t have a problem with someone making an outline (template) off a board, as we all know the plan shape is THE most important component of why a surfboard works, or something similar. But a scan…no way.

I think the argument that you don’t have to be crazy to be a psychiatrist is valid but I want my board to be built by a shaper who rips…it just makes sense to me. Why do you think your shaper knows to add an additional 1/8" of tail rocker to the last 12"? It’s because he knows what the boards do in the water. Plus he should be surfing in this decade and not decades ago. And when I say shaper I mean shaper - I don’t care if the flute scrubber is a ripper. I personally like the idea of one guy, his boards, his programs, and nobody else. If I want something signed or singed off on, which is so disconnected from what I’m into, I can get a signature dish at a restaurant. When Jim goes to that shaping bay in the sky/line up in the sky that I’ll surf what I have until they, or I, fall apart. If they fall apart before me then I’ll find another surfer/shaper for my boards.

Two words in board building that get tossed around too easily today and it feels like they’re losing their meaning: craftsman and shaper.

A shaper designs and shapes boards. He pretty much orders all his blanks from the foam mfg with his custom rocker and glue ups then shapes from that blank. He can asses a blank and understands the nuances of different foams, and can make changes to his models to suit the needs as described by his customers.

A craftsman is a shaper and more. The craftsman knows his way around more tools than just his planer, makes his tools, fixes his tools, sharpens his tools, makes or glues up his own blanks (and does so because he gets it right), can shape from a big old block or a close tolerance blank, knows wood (not just “that’s balsa and thats bass” but can pick out wood, match it for grain and weight, chamber it, mill it…), refines his designs, is looked to for advice, can glass, polish, color, crosses techniques over many different industries to suit the needed application, etc…

That’s just a brain dump from a tiny brain… It’s Friday and I’m still in the office but there’s a Trumer Pils with my name on it around the corner. Please add yours…

I don’t want to get flamed because someone is going to ask, “So does that mean that a glasser isn’t a craftsman?” Go ahead and share your thoughts.

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Jeez solo… for being such a vocal proponent of keeping our sport (religion) pure, your reaction surprises me.

Sure, everyone is influenced by what the others are doing… even (especially) the best shapers look around to see what’s going on outside their shaping rooms. The line I draw is when a shaper (using the term loosely here) takes someone else’s board and SCANS it. The interpretation part just left the building. I’m not saying that you can’t get away with doing it… just that it’s wrong.

As far as wanting my shapers to be good surfers… I know that being in a wheelchair doesn’t mean you can’t build the fastest race car, and not being able to surf doesn’t mean you don’t understand fluid dynamics… but surfing for me is not purely about function. It’s my religion. I want my pastors to walk the walk.

I’ve spent a lot of time in the shaping bays of some of the world’s best shapers (and also of some not so great shapers). A common trait among the best is that they’re thinking about how the board is going to surf… over how it looks. A board that’s going to surf good is going to look good too. Function is beautiful.

We’ve got a guy named Matt that finish shapes for us. He’s young and he rips… RIPS. When he’s shaping you can hear him making “woosh” noises… like he’s riding the board. He’s not thinking - “I gotta get this transition smooth”… he’s thinking - “off the bottom, snap… off the top”. That translates into the finished board. I feel good about riding those boards.

I surf because of the way it makes me feel.

Kendell,

You know I respect your views and your post. So I am just responding to what you wrote with no malice or saracasm meant as an attack. I am not so much about keeping our art pure as I am about keeping it honest and seeing things as they are rather than being delusional about them. Pure is relative. Otay can make a case that what Randy does with Surftech is pure, where I may disagree, his opinion on that matter would be just as valid.

The fact that Al Merrick is always mentioned with reverence by some who claim to want to keep it pure always baffles me…because his handshapes never looked that good and he was the first guy to give us mass produced toothpicks for the average surfer …sold as the best surfboard in the world. Yet many right here would say Al is a purist or one of those shapers. Does he rip? Does Rusty Rip? Does Terry Martin Rip? I don’t really know. I think because the word surfs good is also subjective…though I think most of us with experience know the difference.

What bugs me is when you have two beatiful shapes and both shapers are competent surfers…but one is an ex pro. The ex pro will get the nod even if his stuff is out there…beautiful or not. I just don’t think it adds up…though…I do want my shaper to surf and not be a kuk. I can’t help that feeling either…so I am with ya a bit. All the folks I use surf well. I don’t think any of them surf like Slater or a top 44 pro.

On religion: I think we have enough of it. I don’t consider surf to be anything like a religion. To me it’s more like plugging back into nature and re entering the food chain as well as enjoying that feeling of just being alive. To me religion of any type stiffles those types of feelings with order, structure and dogma.

Having said all that…I’m just not riding a board made by someone in Asia. Not unless the guy was trained by a master, surfs and has paid some dues. But it’s not because the board may not ride well or be shaped as well. Only that I want to support folks I know, respect and like. Fellow watermen

So we are not that far apart. I’m just disagreeing on the having to out surf me or even be as good as a low level pro. I will take competent and experienced.

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Well said Solo,

Over the last seven or eight years I’ve been looking at Asian boards, sold at Costco, (Relm, is one) and have been surprised by the generally good finish, and form. Shapes were quite functional, and prices, retail, were less than the material and labor cost, to produce the board in the US. I hated what I was seeing, but that was the reality of it. The entry level surfer was lost to the US manufacturer. Parents are more likely to pop $239 for a board for junior, than $400 to $600 for a locally produced product. Wish it were not so, but it is. Many good, small manufacturers, were hurt by that reality.

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On religion: I think we have enough of it. I don’t consider surf to be anything like a religion. To me it’s more like plugging back into nature and re entering the food chain as well as enjoying that feeling of just being alive.

For me… who’s not a religious guy, since I grew up a Japanese / Spanish / Buddhist / Jew and never really found “my people”… what you’ve just described is religion.

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On religion: I think we have enough of it. I don’t consider surf to be anything like a religion. To me it’s more like plugging back into nature and re entering the food chain as well as enjoying that feeling of just being alive.

For me… who’s not a religious guy, since I grew up a Japanese / Spanish / Buddhist / Jew and never really found “my people”… what you’ve just described is religion.

Not to debate since certain things are different for each one of us. I just don’t place an importance on surfing thats not there, especially when it’s compared to things that are truly important. It’s not a nessesity. It’s the result of a society with alot of wealth and time on their hands. A gift in many ways and I love it as much as any, but I don’t find it to be some spiritual journey. It is something that has certainly become ingrained in me to a large degree…but my life wouldn’t end if I couldn’t surf. I would just have to move on to the next phase.

The so called surfing lifestyle…the one copied by T.V., the movies and the magazines the one that doesn’t really exist to the majority of surfers, has pretty much always been mostly lies and fairy tales. Filled with scam artist and those that didn’t really want to contribute to society…fouling the lineups with false guru status and attitude. It’s one of the reasons I don’t really like to associate myself with some label called surfing and have always been careful not to liken it to religion.

I just surf and love it.

BTW: I think the SBT has alot of promise.