Hi, I just wanted to ask you guys, Is there such a thing as licensed abused surfboards, where licensed producers make duplicated boards without the shapers / brand knowing.
Theroretically the licensed producer produces clones, two of a kind of the same boards and duplicates the signature and serial numbers. (1 for you and 1 for me!)
I met with a top guy at a Surf Expo and I was really surprised by some of the big names who are affected by this.
How can you tell the real McCoy from a Mickey…
Rumor has it, that in the late '60’s, more than one manufacturer was buying blanks for cash, (off the books) and producing numberless or duplicate/triplicate numbered boards, that were then sold to certain dealers for cash (also off the books). I’m not surprised by the possibility that something similar may be being done by some licensees today. Too bad such things happen.
Cynical me has a motto: “If you can think of it…someone has done it and probably liked it enough to do it again.”
Your level of license abuse sounds more lucrative.
However, the more common one is that JoeBlow visits a licensed Mr. Shaper to get a ‘Mr. Legend’ designer board
complete with logos/stickers. Mr Shaper tells JoeBlow he can have the exact same board without
the ‘Mr. Legend’ stickers and logos for XX dollars cheaper.
Hi, I just wanted to ask you guys, Is there such a thing as licensed abused surfboards, where licensed producers make duplicated boards without the shapers / brand knowing.
Theroretically the licensed producer produces clones, two of a kind of the same boards and duplicates the signature and serial numbers. (1 for you and 1 for me!)
I met with a top guy at a Surf Expo and I was really surprised by some of the big names who are affected by this.
How can you tell the real McCoy from a Mickey…
As often as not…the shaper signed his name to one thing and then later wanted to sign it to another. Or…signed it away or verbally gave it away years ago and then feels they have the right to take it back without a price. I am sure there are cases of downright theft…but I think more often than not it’s simply flakey business practices or poor decision making. There are a few brands dear to my heart with more than one shaper and more than one if not multiple histories. All valid.
It’s one of the potential problems with branding a name rather than a label. For instance…Rusty signs Rusty’s but does not shape them. Nothing wrong with it, but I always thought it weakened his brand. Blue Hawaii could be any number of shapers without damage to it’s label. There are other examples. Probably too many to count.
Not quite the same but related:
I was at a blank cutting facility once when a shop owner came in with an Al Merrick Red Beauty. He said - “I’m selling tons of these, but I’m not making any money… will you make me some that I can put my logo on so I won’t have to pay CI?” To my amazement, the cutter said “sure”.
That was the last time I used them.
Not quite the same but related:
I was at a blank cutting facility once when a shop owner came in with an Al Merrick Red Beauty. He said - “I’m selling tons of these, but I’m not making any money… will you make me some that I can put my logo on so I won’t have to pay CI?” To my amazement, the cutter said “sure”.
That was the last time I used them.
I dont see any thing wrong with the guy selling precut blanks
who cares about the CI name
theres a lot of other names out there with the same blank dimensions
untill its sanded and glassed with a logo on it,its just a shaped blank
not a CI
Interesting reply Ken,
The posting I put out was based on actual license abuse had taken place where 250 boards were ordered by a high profile shaper in Brazil. The shapers in BRAZIL were found out producing 500, technically 250 clones all seriliazed and signed the same. So were not just talking shapes here we are talking about total brand and shape abuse.
Effectively a scam worth thousands of dollars.
What would you do if you found your boards copied, (shapes and brand)? I believe in the piece of art theory, but I am old school and boards are knocked out easily these days but I still appreciate the skill it takes to finish boards properly.
Especially with modern board shaping techniques and computers where decals can be made easily.
Surf Boards turn up over here in Europe all the time and nobody knows where they have come from. Asia, or South America, back yard operations may be…
I just wanted to get some feedback from you guys how strongly you felt about this issue.
Apparently this abuse is common but it sounds even more prevalent in shape copying.
Even so how can you guarantee to a customer other than actully seeing a board shaped that an actual surf board is 100 % what it is…I see the attractiveness to rogue shapers producing branded copies for illegal gain.
I know this is a touchy subject as any shaper/ big or small would not want stuff like this out in the news it could potentially de-value the product/ brand.
We should all want to protect everyones integrity, for the good of industry, Im curious to find out how big the problem is…
cheers
About fifteen years ago shapers were making finnished boards in Brazil using our logo(WRV) with out our knowledge and no royalties.What a battle.We had to go into most SA countries and TM@ our logo
I don’t agree. It’s one thing to copy a board for your personal use, and another to copy one for commercial gain. This was a blatant case of duplicating another shaper’s design to call it his own. Totally not cool.
This was - “scan this board, and make me a bunch of them just like it”. There is nothing about that mindset that sits right with me. In fact, I haven’t been back to have boards scanned because I don’t trust that my files will be treated with the respect they deserve. Our designs are our intellectual property.
If you want to buy one of our boards, measure it, make adjustments, then bang out your version of the same board… that’s one thing… everyone does it. But scanning a board and producing copies is like taking a Van Gough, photocopying it, and selling it as yours. Sure… you have to load the paper and add ink to the printer but the end result is still a knockoff of someone else’s art.
As far as the original question goes… Brazil is known for not respecting licenses. Boards also sell for much less there, so the incentive to pay attention to what’s happening there isn’t that great. I haven’t wrapped my head around the problem yet… partially because the payoff doesn’t seem worth the risk. I think the only way to enforce licensing agreements in some countries is to have a full-time presence there.
We have an agreement with a guy in Japan that’s been in place since the 80’s. They’ve got 42 dealers and they run full-page ads in the mags… yet they haven’t made a royalty payment in years. Enforcing the license is difficult because the Japanese government sides with their manufacturer and we’re not physically there. Even though it’s our name on the boards… since they’ve been making them for so long, the government considers them a Japanese company. I inherited this problem, and am in the midst of trying to find a happy solution.
Part of my past life was spent at Lucasfilm. Part of that time was with licensing issues. We were the second largest licensing firm in the world… representing other clients as well as Star Wars and Indiana Jones. We had the power and global presence to enforce abuses… and there were many. Unfortunately most surf brands (in fact all surf brands) don’t have that kind of muscle.
The law is on thing… enforcement is another.
I like your system and it’s potential. With regards to shapers and their lables and knowing the surf industy. As soon as you put those in a set of boards and label them …Authentic XYZ lables…you find out someone else has a legitiamte contract with that label either recent or in the past and end up in court. Same with verbal. Loose ends can cause many issues. Thats the issue in our business where many promises have been made and labels have at times been owned by various individuals or corporations.
I think your system has alot of potential to avoid this if they start out with it. Even contracts…I assume…could be passed on via the chips, helping to make it even more legal. Then there is pricing and minumum orders and friends who know so and so. If it’s not run tight…it will be ruined right from the start.
Sympathies to the WRV guys…love that logo and the company itself. Even if they did at one time have the second worst rep in the business with flappy. I was a dealer and had to drop the line because of that.
I was at a blank cutting facility once when a shop owner came in with an Al Merrick Red Beauty. He said - “I’m selling tons of these, but I’m not making any money… will you make me some that I can put my logo on so I won’t have to pay CI?” To my amazement, the cutter said “sure”.
That was the last time I used them.
Amazing, but not surprising. There has always been an element of being cut throat in the surf industry, a tight knit group of talented craftsman infiltrated by some hard core MFer’s. Now, it’s on the world stage in real time. Or, newbies on their first 50 w/ a webmaster pimping their shit as the golden egg. Youtube that.
Or, newbies on their first 50 w/ a webmaster pimping their shit as the golden egg. Youtube that.
Much wisdom on this one. Espcially since there is no one golden egg.
Another thing with trademarks is that they expire if you don’t keep them updated. Thats how Ed Clapp got the Surfboards Hawaii brand by registering himself as the owner after it had expired. This is what inspired Tom Sena to do the same with Canyon, Natural Progression and other old labels.
Hi Ken any chance I can catch up?phone may be?
so lets see, the abuses of ‘intelectual’
property by low minded $ motivated
ae putting hiproduction marketeers at risk.
well thet might mean thet them surftechs
and such might not be authentic? AAAWWWWWWW
Shux … the ad campagains are the bait for the traping of
licksensing abusers into copying designs.
what could ever look so good $ as
but considerably cheeeeeeeper
…ambrose…
Bang on this is what it does, it closes off all the loops to help stop the rip off culture and secures licensing arrangements.
Any lables found to be using the system are guaranteed to be 100 % real boards as being absolutely genuine, technically once your insert the system you give your boards a hidden identity a “DNA” that cannot be recreated or reproduced.Obviously the manufacture has to make a statement that he uses the system for his boards for self preservation of his label and security
Any branded boards found without the system inside can be considered Fake or a Copy which will automatically devalue it giving greater control to the industry on a local and global level.
This way you can product for IPR and license.
The consumer has the added incentive of protecting and his boards with an anti theft system / insurance system fitted inside his board. This way opportunist or low down scum who steal boards will find it much harder to move on.
A good example of this is Local Motion, Australia.
They bang the system in all their export boards to Europe and Japan, plus their team riders boards, even Pancho has his boards done out on the world tour for traceablity so that Local Motion can manage his quiver properly.
The system even allows you to have a connection between the shaper and the board rider so they can keep in touch.
Ther are lots of other benefits too…
Its ok to dissagree
copying has been goin on in the surf industry since the begining
probly not cool but sometimes its a form of flattery
like I said a machined blank is just that
and it realy isnt labled
when it gets finnished with another logo and glass job and fin set
more than likely it will not be what it was copied from
maybe close ,but no cigar
I see right here on sways ,people copying outlines and other things
how do you know there not makin a buck off it?
if you look at most longboards from different manufacturers
you will see the exact dimentions like 18" nose 14" tail 23" wide
those guys aint comlaining about stealing
I havent looked ,or do I care to, but I’ll bet CI and Rusty and Lost and BYB and who ever
have a 6.2 thruster that are almost exactly the same ,
except for the logo of course
greed is a bad thing
“hey , I think you copied my shape! give me money!”
With all that said, copying and using someone elses label on anything, even a personal board
is a bad thing, definetly infringment
I think thats where the line should be drawn
Interesting reply Ken,
The posting I put out was based on actual license abuse had taken place where 250 boards were ordered by a high profile shaper in Brazil. The shapers in BRAZIL were found out producing 500, technically 250 clones all seriliazed and signed the same. So were not just talking shapes here we are talking about total brand and shape abuse.
Effectively a scam worth thousands of dollars.
What would you do if you found your boards copied, (shapes and brand)? I believe in the piece of art theory, but I am old school and boards are knocked out easily these days but I still appreciate the skill it takes to finish boards properly.
Especially with modern board shaping techniques and computers where decals can be made easily.
Surf Boards turn up over here in Europe all the time and nobody knows where they have come from. Asia, or South America, back yard operations may be…
I just wanted to get some feedback from you guys how strongly you felt about this issue.
Apparently this abuse is common but it sounds even more prevalent in shape copying.
Even so how can you guarantee to a customer other than actully seeing a board shaped that an actual surf board is 100 % what it is…I see the attractiveness to rogue shapers producing branded copies for illegal gain.
I know this is a touchy subject as any shaper/ big or small would not want stuff like this out in the news it could potentially de-value the product/ brand.
We should all want to protect everyones integrity, for the good of industry, Im curious to find out how big the problem is…
cheers
waiting on your call. What happened to your phone information?
Thanks
Since this seems to be the place to tell your copying stories, here’s mine. One is just funny, the other is one that affected me.
First, the funny. A long time back a huge east coast retailer got the idea that they could have cheap boards made in Taiwan.
They sent over boards for them to copy, mainly for the shapes and artwork. When the container of product landed, they discovered
how good the ‘‘copying’’ was; instead of the shop’s logo, all the boards had duplicates of the ‘‘sample’’ boards decals, just plain
bootlegs of some major-label stuff… To their credit, the retailer had (just) enough ethics to want to fix the mistake, so they contracted
a local boardbuilder to do cover-up artwork on the whole batch of boards, resulting in a windfall of work for him at great expense to
the large retailer.
One of my personal experiences involves the same retailer, who a few years ago told me in a somewhat matter-of-fact manner
that they had taken one of my fishes and had it cloned in China. They either thought I’d be flattered or knew I couldn’t/wouldn’t
go after them legally. Or maybe they figured I was too stupid to care.