I disagree with that statement. I think that free trade is only good when markets are comparable in terms of cost factors. This is clearly not the case. In Sweden, your country, workers will be provided protection and social services and this has a cost. Is it good then to make these expensive Swedish workers unemployed so you can import products from a country where there is no social system and there is no form of protection for workers? Lets not even get started on the environmental concerns… In short the terms social dumping and eco dumping are relevant to this debate.
Actually the only way they can and will develop a system where workers will be provided protection and social services require us to buy their goods. Only through economic growth they will resive those goods.
I disagree with that statement. I think that free trade is only good when markets are comparable in terms of cost factors. This is clearly not the case. In Sweden, your country, workers will be provided protection and social services and this has a cost. Is it good then to make these expensive Swedish workers unemployed so you can import products from a country where there is no social system and there is no form of protection for workers? Lets not even get started on the environmental concerns… In short the terms social dumping and eco dumping are relevant to this debate.
Actually the only way they can and will develop a system where workers will be provided protection and social services require us to buy their goods. Only through economic growth they will resive those goods.
regards,
Håvard
Haavard, that’s very long run. And you’ll have to excuse me when I quote (or paraphrase) John Maynard Keynes:
in the long run, we’re all dead
The argument of economic growht being an equalizer is as old hat as Adam Smith’s invisible hand. I don’t buy it and there is no logic nor evidence for it. The only that happens in this game is that everyone loses. Just compare it to a prisoners dillema matrix…
I totally agree with Haavard. and as they grow (and they do it fast) prices will adjust. its just a repetition of what happened with other countries since industrialisation, Japan for example. good products from China will not be cheap.
Its amazing how information leaks and Chinese get on the bandwagon and try to put there hand out for $$$$$. In the States, as many people know we have been doing Extruded for quite sometime . Companies like Patagonia and Xtr have paved the way for XPS fanatics. In fact to make it even more intersting XTR has a patent on the Vent technology. Why do you think that companies are not sprouting up everywhere trying to do extruded? The myths and opinions about extruded are way out in left field . Many surfboard companies show interst in XPS but later find out that to make it work they have to have a license to use XTR technology. To set the record straight “ANYONE” can build XPS boards but “ANYONE” cannot just put a vent sytem of anykind intop theitr boards. A lot of power seeking companies learn this is the truth so they either do one of two things- ride or collide…
On a personal note XPS has been the BEST stuff I have ever ridden under my feet in my entire 30+ years of surfing . The myths about xps fly until you actually have one to see waht the hype is about . First off the way they ride(that is what a true surfer is solely looking at) is insane -very fast lively -strong -very hard to pressure ding ,very hard to crack ,etc…
I truly thing XTR is the best compliment to a regular board. Most of my friends who have gotten an XTR show no interest in POLYESTER or EPS anymore. I am not dissing the two but poly and EPS have paved the way for something better XPS…
The industry naturally will be insecure to recognize this due to the fact that they have a lot invested into poly and newer molded eps but the general public got to understand that is all they have so natuirally they would stand behind their product and try to downtalk XPS.
My best advice -don’t believe it . Try an XTR and you will not want any other… Petey
Hey DSD, does XTR allow a backyarder to shape a XPS blank and have XTR glass it for them? I’m supposed to be getting the last two CI hookups . . . I’ll test them out on XTR . . .
So far the only way XPS works is by the ventilation shaft method or has the XPS formulas improved? There’s some archived threads stating if XTR is improved it could be a great foam. Its seems difficult for most as its non stick, so its hard to get resin (even epoxy) to stick, its shear strength isn’t that great, and its gassing issue / delaminations.
Some of it was adding titatium molecules to allow resin to stick easier? Most of this was with building insulation . . . I know there are EPS companies that are making EPS specificially for surfboards.
I have an XTR that’s about 4 years old. Feels ‘dead’ and heavy compared to how it felt when it was new. No open dings, so I have a hard time thinking it gained (water) weight any way except in through the little deck holes. And it didn’t keep its initial springy feeling the way EPS & sandwich construction do.
I have no doubt it could be a great product. And I’m not trying to put down Javier’s process - I think it’s probably improved since I ordered this one. But at this point, I don’t like surfing that board anymore.
A buddy of mine (Surfore) ordered an identical board at the same time. Ours even had the same number, just A & B. His broke.
I’m wondering about this also, XPS is water proof but has gas pockets embedded in its fused / closed cell . . . so it compresses and stresses, the gas breaks free and leaks. Well after a considerable amount of time . . . the gas has to come from somewhere, and normally what replaces it is air. But if you have the pin holes like XTR does, water could gain access also reside in the place where the gas leaves.
I was just down there on Monday and they had a bunch of blue dow foam boards on the racks with no vents.
When I asked him about the “reputed” delamination problem the guy mentioned the same thing…
that they leave the skin very very rough and that when glassing them they don’t sqeegee the resin out of the glass like you normally do glassing and then pour on another coat and press it into the glass before letting the lam set.
He said their glassing factory was very experienced at glassing blue dow properly and they never had any problems. I’m presuming this is the company you are mentioning above as well.
The boards I saw were still very light and I was impressed that they were doing so many boards in blue dow foam with out using Xavier’s pinhole technique for glassing XTR XPS.
I really loved all the new and used boards I saw in their shop and that’s pretty much all they carried in there compared to all the other “surf boutiques” I visited along the coast traveling from San Diego to LA… The last time I was there in 1977 my brother and I got to talk story with Nuuhuiwa for a bit.
cool thanks . . . I’ll shoot them an email (if my test ride with XTR is nice).
hey Oneula, thanks for the info, hmm . . . wonder how does that work (glassing XPS w/out holes). . . the glass may bond with the rough (broken beads) and prevent further gas seepage?
I noticed most of the posts regarding XPS often point to its issues, and how better EPS is . . . one of them say XPS has shear issues . . .
Hi again Alfred, Many guys using the blue stuff ask Javier for help w/ venting. Same issues -leave in hot car /leave on surfrack in hot sun etc… All XPS will de-lam without knowing how to care for board. The vents simply act as a buffer not a solution. As you will see the flex characteristics are amazing , the boards are strong , hard to ding , work really well. If I were left with a ploy board vs. a XTR -I would rather take the time to care for the XTR and protect it from extremely hot situations.
Does that mean that ambient air temperatures of around 80-90 degrees and 85 degree water are out of the question? And I guess you can’t do white paints or coatings on the blank to reflect the light/heat?
HI Greg , I havn’t exactly checked on the exact degree that XPS will de-lam , I know it is somewhere around 150 degrees. You can paint the blank but two things–White paint will turn ivory w/epoxy . The bond strenth of the epoxy to xps will be weaker because of the paint. Aloha
HI Erik G> XTR’s patent includes "any perforations " from glass to foam on “ANY” extruded foam glassed with epoxy -blue foam white foam doesn’t matter. Kudos to Javier who was so smart to get on this patent. Unlike all EPS boardbuilders who share the same technology (there is nothing special to it or patents) . XTR is in a class all it’s own. For all the guys that want to take someone else’s technology and try to run with it -forget it. You may end up in a lawsuit .
So you are claiming that no-one had previously sold a board with “any” perforations in a surfboard made with such foam and resin? Because if someone has done it then IMHO there would be what is called Prior Art and I would be very interested to hear about a judges opinion on the judiciability of said patent. but hey, I am not a lawyer and I don’t give legal advice.
Quote:
HI Erik G> XTR’s patent includes "any perforations " from glass to foam on “ANY” extruded foam glassed with epoxy -blue foam white foam doesn’t matter. Kudos to Javier who was so smart to get on this patent. Unlike all EPS boardbuilders who share the same technology (there is nothing special to it or patents) . XTR is in a class all it’s own. For all the guys that want to take someone else’s technology and try to run with it -forget it. You may end up in a lawsuit .
Well if Javier can get a patent for perforating a surfboard laminate in an extruded foam board I must say it sound to me like a weird way of handing out patents…
Well I sure hope he doesn’t bother to come and sue my backyardass if I happen to make a vented board or two…
By the way how does his patent get along with NASA doing something similar?