Kinetix users - what are you doing?

General Discussion
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Hi, Im going to do a few boards with Kinetix epoxy after using RR for a while.

I have done a search and found out alot but want to get feedback on the following.

What are people adding , if anything to their fill and gloss coats with kinetix, if so, what and how much?

Has anyone used or using Additive F with Kinetix ?

Are you scrubbing the lam ? What with?

How do Kinetix and RR compare?

Anything else those who have used BOTH want to add?

I know the politics of this is a can of worms, and I have followed this on line from the start. Please don’t let this get nasty, I’m just a boardbuilder looking for some advice. My reason for the change is curiosity and wanting to expand my suppliers. I hate being stuck with a shaped blank and no resin!

Thanks.

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Well since I changed from my previous epoxy i’ve probably only done about 8 using Kinetix, and 4 with RR, so may not be too qualified to comment.

They are similar in a lot of ways - both very nice resins!

I like the RR fast hardener, very nice and snaps off quickly.

Kinetix only has the one hardener (that I know of), but it is a nice middle speed.

To be honest, i’d use the two resins interchangeably, they both will do a great job.

I did a selaer coat (over wood) today with RR, then lammed 20mins later with Kinetix.

I guess the production guys might have a preference, but i’d bet it would only be for minor reasons.

RR has a larger selection of resins/hardeners of course which is great.

If you’re only do low quanities of boards, either resin will do the business, no worries!

Dunno about AddF sorry, never used it.

Gloss coats I just heat it up, and apply to a warm board, no additives.

Both resins take polyester over the top nicely (if done right).

I’d like to hear if what the production guys think, i’d be hard pressed to complain about either one really!

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We use RR for production and Justin from Graphite Masters provides the best service know to man. Being loyal to a good supplier is not an issue!

Using RR is like insurance.

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Very good call!

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I Know you stated people who have used BOTH RR and Kinetix but beggars cant be choosers so I thought I’d throw my 2 bobs worth in.

this is what I do for lamming with Kinetix.

Lam bottom, when cured wipe/scrub with damp white scotchbrite then key surface with 120.

lam deck same procedure let dry thoroughly.

Filler coat with kinetix with 3% wax in styrene.

If shortboard matt finish sand as per normal.

If finish coat sand with #80, clean and gloss with poly.

I would rather use poly for its uv stability but even though they’ve designed the kinetix to take a poly filler coat you still get a seperation from the lam after an impact no matter how well you prep the bottom layers. you can also see a speration when drilling the fin plugs, so I now use the kinetix as a filler coat as well.

ATL, ( the company that makes kinetix) tell you not to add anything to their resin.

Daren

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I only use kinetics, mainly cos we can’t get RR here in OZ.

Well I have had trouble anyway

Here are my steps.

  1. seal blank. (spackle or epoxy/microballon)

  2. lam bottom

  3. when bottom lam is tacky, put clear plastic on the racks, flip and lam deck

  4. when deck lam is tacky, fill coat deck. let cure at room temp.

  5. flip board and scrub bottom lam and deck laps with scotch pad and water, then rinse.

  6. sand bottom lam and deck laps with 80 grit

  7. clean bottom and wash with wax and grease remover (auto supplier)

  8. fill coat bottom lam and let cure at room temp.

  9. install fin boxes and let cure at room temp or for glass ons, install before bottom fill coat

  10. post cure board ( I do it at 50 degrees C for 6 hrs or 40 degrees C for 8 hrs)

  11. scrub board with scotch pad and water and rince.

  12. sand entire board.

  13. clean board and wash with wax and grease remover.

  14. gloss coat deck let cure at room temp

  15. gloss coat bottom let cure.

  16. scrub board with scotch pad and water and rince.

17 finish sand board and polish if you want. (I dont polish)

Bottm line, If you let any resin cure, you must scrub with scotch pad and water to remove any blush and contamination BEFORE you sand or you will sand it into your resin and have fish eyes all over your next resin coat. You also need to sand cured resin for the next layer to bond. I used the wax and grease remover to remove any contamination such as finger print that may disturb you next layer. As for additives, I have used it but didnt see any real difference.

If you post cure, you will have a crisp glass job that sand fairly well. Not as good as poly but not too bad.

Hope this helps

Cheers

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Thanks for the great responses.

I have never scrubbed or washed RR so I am in for a learning curve by the sounds of it.

I have used Gemco 2:1 , great resin , thin like poly and wets out great but blushes like a nun in a brothel! I guess I should have scrubbed it!

thanks again

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I’ve had no end of problems with Gemco and wouldn’t use it again. Even when I’ve sanded then put down a filler, it looks good, but weeks later starts lifting off. Gonna try RR now.

K

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I used to use Kinetix but then I tried RR with Add F and all my issues with hot coats flaking off and the difficulty of sanding epoxy just disappeared. No scrubbing required either.

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Well, three boards in with Kinetix and heres my results.

Pros: Great wet out (even through three layers of 6 Oz) and less resin needed.

     Long gell time so all the mistakes can be fixed

     Workable at lowish temps .... 15 C - just

Cons: Corrosive as hardner. Everything nearby has gone rusty.

       Long cure time (at least 24 -48 hours at room temp) or postcure required to sand (clogs like crazy)

       Must be scrubbed! 

      Don't listen to those telling you Wet on wet works - it will flake off! You must scrub and key surface between lams

      Takes at least twice as long to make a board because of the above

      Sands OK but not like the RR

      Softens badly when sanding so lots of care needed

I didn’t dislike it ( although one build was abandoned when the laps seperated!) DO NOT FLIP AND DO WET ON WET/TACKY LAMS

I was told (by some) not to do it - but I didn’t listen.

Its back to Resin Research for me - thanks Greg!

The product if used as reccomended works fine, I just think that the RR has more of what I need and less of the problems.

One more board to do to use up the kinetix resin. I am going to use Additive F and see what happens! will post the result.

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Hey Offshore. How did the Add F work with the Kinetix?

(I've made two boards with RR, made sure lams and fillers were laid down within 24 hours and had not problems at all and no washing or sanding between steps. But we cannot get RR in NZ at the moment!)

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Hi Karl,

Using additive F with Kinetix seem to do nothing. Or at least I didnt notice any sanding benifit. The adheasion issues have put me off a bit.

Just doing a board with the new Gemco 2:1 at the moment ( Now supplied through Primal) don't know if they have changed the resin (it now looks like poly with a BLUE tint).....we will see.

Yeah, its a pain that Seabase arn't importing RR anymore. Ben says that they just wern't selling enough. I tried to convince him to get a small shipment but with the economy the way it is I can't blame him.

I contacted Greg about shipping some RR in from the states and it is possible (need to ship a reasonable amount to make it worth it). If my experiment with the Gemco doesn't yeild good results that will probably be my next option.

The exchange rate is good and Greg was very helpful. Just have to find the time and money to sus it out.

If I go down that track I will post here and on Compsands to see if anyone is interested in going in with me on a shipment.

 

 

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What adhesion problems did you have with Kenetix?

I tried GEMCO. It is very clear and seems to resist yellowing. But I have had a lot of problems with blushing. Parts of the lam would lift off over time, regardless of the preparation. Had to write a board off after continually repairing it over about 18 months - not good with a balsa compsand. I wouldn't use it again. The RR was alot better.

I know someone in Wgtn who has brought in RR and might be interested in going into an effort to import some more.

 

K

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I’m interested to know what Primal are charging for Gemco?

 

Kinetix has always worked really well for me, I love it. 

But a good NZ made resin for a reasonable price would sway me

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Gemco from primal  is $125 for 3 litres, $900 for 30 litres.

I went surfing so haven't lammed the board yet.

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Hi Karl,

The adheasion problems were between the bottom and deck lams. The rails delammed and also sections of the hotcoat flaked off.

One board I lammed, flipped tacky and lammed the deck. No scrubbing or sanding and I paid the price. It was suggested here that this worked....Not for me.

The other scrubbed and sanded and had delams between the lam and the hotcoat.

With RR i have yet to have a delam problem.

I have one board made with Kinetix that has no problems.

Im sure that if used as directed Kinetix is just fine I just dont  like all the the scrubbing and sanding between coats.

I also found Kinetix took ages (up to 5 days to be sandable without clogging) even then I used twice as much paper to sand out a board than I would with a board made with RR. The cure curve seemed very slow.

I will probably give Kinetix another go if the Gemco dosn't work out (I still have a couple of litres sitting around in the bat cave)

 

17

Hey offshore

If you post cure kinetics, it cures harder and makes it easier to sand.

You dont have to post cure, but it is recommended by ATL.

Post curing will give a stronger glass job.

Cheers

 

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Comment from ATL:

"From our experience and testing there are no gains to be made from the addition of a wax/xylene solution.  One down side was there is increased porosity in the surface. 
Resin will cure in 8-12 hours."

From what's been said in this thread, I'm well off with the FGI 180 and Surfset (but not happy with it).  

Anyone doing UV polyester finish coats over epoxy?

Edit in some missing words in quote
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Hi All,

Just about to laminate my first board with Kinetix R110 and have a few questions if I may:

  1. I understand I need to scotch bright/sand between applications to key the surface and that you can use water or denatured alchohol (methylated spirits) to clean/degrease, has anyone tried sugar soap and would it also be a suitable degreaser?  -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_soap

  2. I’ve watched a shaper mate of mine glass with polyester many a time and after laminating the bottom he filler coats the lap, sands that lap then lam’s the that side (deck), fill coats that lap and sands it before the final hot coat. This helps heaps with producing a nice flat lamination for hot coat and easier sanding.
    Would this be the same process for epoxy?
    My concern is curing times, with polyester and suncure this process is very fast but epoxy is a differnt animal and I’d imagine I need to do each resin application each day to allow enough full curing between each application. This isn’t a huge problem, just wondering how you guys go about it.

I have read most posts on the site about Kinetix and epoxies in general but some are quite dated, any other helpfull tips or tricks you guys have picked up along the way since then that might help would also be great.

Thanks and Cheers,

Mick.

P.S. I also stumbled onto a possible clean up solution in my web travels that be be of some help, I found it on a site for Araldite (an epoxy glue), here’s the quoted text from the site:

“A useful solvent to clean up epoxy and polyester resins BEFORE they are cured can be prepared by mixing 2 parts toluene with 1 part alcohol (eg methylated spirits or denatured alcohol).”

 

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