Over the weekend I had the good fortune to watch a true pro laminate a board with Resin Research epoxy using Additive “F.” The process went extremely well but there are some critical issues I would like to address here. Anyone who tries to use this material should do so with temperature as a primary consideration otherwise I can assure you that you’ll get less than a first quality result. The board was done with two layers of 4 oz on each side. The second layer of cloth put over the first layer while still wet and uncure and the material worked into each layer separately. It seemed to take more work to get the material to wet out completely than it does for poly. It was done free-laped with the top layer lapping the under layer by three quarters of an inch from the bottom and 2 to 3 inches from the deck. The bottom was done on Saturday with the resin preheated in the chamber that’s used to cure UV poly because it stays at a constant 75 degrees. The air temperature on Saturday was about 63 degrees and the material was a little slow to kick but it went well. On Sunday the temperature was 74 degrees and the material started to kick much earlier. As a result it had to be worked a little harder to get a good result. A small second batch was used to wet down the rail lamination on both days so that there was plenty of time to wet them down and do the laps carefully for as we know pot-curing time is much faster than that of the material that’s all spread out in the lamination. The end result was very impressive. Had I taken the process on myself I would have been at a huge disadvantage not knowing all the little tricks it takes to work the material into the weave and get the glass to lay perfectly along with knowing exactly how much material to use. Once the hot coat and finishing is done I’ll post some photos the board. “New Beginnings” glass works of Santa Cruz glassed it. One final thought: I know that some people have an allergic skin reaction to epoxy. Although some consider it a messy process one might consider doing all the sanding and finishing with wet/dry so the sandings will be contained in water and thus reduce exposure. By the way though protection was worn during the laminating process we checked for off gassing and fumes produced during the laminations process were very minimal. Greg Loerh’s Resin Research product works well. I’ll up date this thread when the hot coat is on with some details. Mahalo, Rich
Rich, Thanks for the detail. I’ve had some problems with epoxy wetout. I lay out all the fiberglass layers, and then wet it all down. As the glass is absorbing the epoxy I spread the epoxy around to work it into the dry glass. During this operation the epoxy bubbles and froths. If I cut and wet each layer separately, I would probably have less frothing. My first concern is working time. In warmer weather the epoxy tub would probably have to be stored in the fridge as I lay and cut subsequent glass layers. Otherwise the pot would start setting up. A minor concern would be glass contortion. Laying dry glass onto wet glass would require two people (four hands) laying out stretched glass perfectly… the first time. -Noodle
Noodle, I`ve dealt with 1-person positioning and application of glass cloth by having it on a dispenser roll, arranged so that it can be pulled out, carefully lowered and then trimmed on the board. After mixing a quantity of epoxy, you can help prevent premature curing by simply transfering it to several smaller containers. The old divide and conquer trick. That always worked better for me than refrigeration, which can create more problems.
The trick is to have the glass cut and ready to go before you mix the epoxy. Mix your batch for each layer separately and squeege the stuff on the glass right away so accelerated pot-curing time isn’t an issue. You don’t want to cool the resin down because it wont wet the cloth out worth a damn. Two 2x4s the width of the cloth clamped on either side of the end of the glass cut to reach over the length of the board will serve as the extra pair of hands to hold the far end just fine. Get that all set up so you can put it on over the first layer as soon as you mix the second pot up. It doesn’t take long to drop it on the board carefully and trim the longitudinal edges and you on you way to wetting out the laps before you know it. One thing sure the less you have to work the material to wet the cloth and get it to lay right the stronger the lamination will be and the less foaming you’ll get. So proper perperation and a moderate even temperature of the materials and work surroundings is the key. 65 to 70 degrees for everything is just about perfect. Don’t try it below 60 or about 80 degrees or you’ll be sorry. Mahalo, Rich
Thanks for the tips guys. I’ve seen the glass end-roll setup, but I till can’t figure out how to brake and hold the roll from turning when I roll off the proper length of glass. Also, is there an easy, storeable, portable way to build one? Mixing fresh epoxy for each glass layer sounds like a good idea. I think frothing is accelerated as the liquid epoxy starts curing. And, you’re right, cold epoxy hates soaking into cloth. On a different topic… It seems apparent that certain sensitive applications would benefit from a stronger composite fabric than glass which isn’t conductive. Any news or rumors?
Noodle - By “certain sensitive applications” you mean…? I’m not sure to what you are referring when you mention glass not being “conductive”… as in electricity? I’ve seen a few Hobie shortboards using carbon graphite fabric as a deck inlay and Greg Loehr has told me that he has had success using it as well. Thomas Hast has indicated that his exotic fabric glass job has held up very well with no denting or dings whatsoever - and he used iso/ortho poly resin. Greg Loehr also mentioned to me (and I have read elsewhere of some guys in australia) using some sort of aluminum as a skin. Maybe you could provide more details as to what you’re talking about? Thanks!
“On a different topic… It seems apparent that certain sensitive applications would benefit from a stronger composite fabric than glass which isn’t conductive. Any news or rumors?” Noodle, Carbon graphite is both electrically and thermally conductive. See the carbon comparison charts relative to fiberglass, steel, aluminum, etc. http://www.zoltek.com/technical_resources/performance_character.shtml
…My current wood hollow project has the entire inside of the board CF / Epoxy…Strong - Stiff - Light…Easy to work with… There are some details on my web site…New… Paul http://hollowsurfboards.com
To prevent the epoxy from going off to quickly keeping exotherm down, use a paint tray to store the mixed resin. This will give you a lot more working time. Buckets just build mass causing exotherm.
I really think the next big change will be with thermal plastics being used instead of Polyester or epoxies, not changes in glass. Polyethelyne, Nylon, Urethane, and they can come from recycled sources. The technology is there, it just needs to be transfered to surfboards. Some fine tuning to lower weight products and high hdt light weight low cost core is needed. The most popular product now is called Twintex, but there are better things coming. Boards will need to be glassed with silicone heat blankets to cure the plastic.
check out systemthree.com for more tips on working with epoxy. The paint tray is a great idea, because in the bucket it does go off faster. The nice thing about sb-112 is you can work it at lower temps and there is very little or no amine blush. It is also very good for wet sanding, because the epoxy cures to such a high gloss finish there is very little sanding involved. One thing that does help in the laminating is using a stiff plastic sqeegee instead of rubber, altough I use the rubber sqeegee, I use very little pressure to work the epoxy into the glass . Remember don’t overwork the epoxy , just wet it out evenly and leave it alone. Using a foam brush or brisle brush will also make the laps go easier. Just don’t overwork it. Stay Solid
“I really think the next big change will be with thermal plastics being used instead of Polyester or epoxies, not changes in glass. Polyethelyne, Nylon, Urethane, and they can come from recycled sources. The technology is there, it just needs to be transfered to surfboards. Some fine tuning to lower weight products and high hdt light weight low cost core is needed…” — In 1982 I changed the materials and construction of my surfmats, and began using thermal plastics, i.e. military spec nylon and polyurethane. In a time span of only a few weeks, they went from being heavy, glue-bonded designs, weighing 5 to 6 pounds… to thermally-fused ultralights with a much higher strength to weight ratio, tipping the scales at 12 to 18 ounces. Their cores were 100% recyclable and buoyant, impervious to damage, totally clean, extremely light and completely free… air. Sometimes less is more.
Dale, Have you considered applying your technology to flight? Some low-stress surfaces could take advantage of the lighter weight. The problem would be in trying to smoothly transition from those surfaces to rigid support structures. Wings, riding on air, filled with… air. -Noodle
“Wings, riding on air, filled with… air.” Yes… a beautiful concept, Noodle! A while back, I was told that the military has experimented with and developed small, ultralight inflatable “wing/gliders” as an adjunct to parachuting. Supposedly the entire craft is able to easily fit into a backpack, and could be very quickly inflated and deployed. Cool stuff!
Here’s a brief up date on the epoxy board I have under construction. With the Additive “F” used throughout the laminating and hot coating process we have a product that doesn’t have a single fish-eye. It was a little cool today and as we know the longer things take the more problems you have particularly with epoxy, so into the UV cure box that stays at 75 degrees all the time it went and Wa-La in 4 hours it was cured hard enough to rout and install the center fin box. As Raphl says it’s F*+kin’ water tight as hell! The surfacing agent works beautifully. I’ll try and get a photo before it’s sanded. Mahalo, Rich
Have any of you guys had any experience with EPIREZ epoxy resin I have used it here in OZ and not had any problem with it.It wets out the cloth very easily(much easier than poly)gives you plenty of time to work it and with a light sand of the lam accepts poly resin over it for hot and gloss coats.I leave it out in the glassing room most of the year and for 3or4 months through winter I put the drum next to an oil heater or in the hot room.Not as quick as poly but very easy to use.I’ll post a pic of the last board I did with it tomorrow night.
Darren, Where can you get EPIREZ? I’m making an eps/epoxy board. I was going to use Spsystems sp115 but it’s very expensive. Any info about EPIREZ would be much appreciated, I’m in Victoria, AU Thanks, Stephen