What are the result of the difference between the two rocker show here in terms of turning, paddling and noseriding performance? Both rockers are from well known and respected shapers, both are roughly 3" tail rocker and 5" nose rocker(nose rocker are exactly the same 4" from nose, length is 9’4"). The rockers are ripped from photos. As far as I know the black variant seems to be more common from the rocker photos I’ve found on some of the major labels websites.
regards,
Håvard
I would also like to know. I haven’t seen a lot on how subtle changes in rocker affect the ride.
Hi Haavard, I would say as far as turning goes, not much change since the tail rocker is the same. BUT if you look closely, you will notice that the white rocker line, being more “curvy” under the nose area, induces a slight added volume in that area. This means more volume to whip around when turning and thus a slightly slower turning ability. The black rocker line, being straighter, makes for added paddling and noseriding ability. Granted, the difference is not obvious. But then, differences between two boards are just that: very subtle, sometimes very hard to actually see without precise measuring.
The black one will noseride on a flatter plane, like setting a rail & walking the plank at Malibu. You can take your time walking, as it will be more stable. It will paddle a little faster, but be more prone to pearling. Harder to drop in at a steep wave like a beachbreak. You have to bottom turn over the fin, because if you lay it on a rail, it’ll dig the nose & go under.
The white one, if you set the rail, will want to follow the curve & track up & out the top of the wave. So to noseride it, you either have to make your bottom turn, and take 2 or 3 big steps (leaps, almost - think Bonga) all the way to the tip. Midway won’t cut it. You other choice is to use it as a 2+1 and, as shown in the Bert/Sunova noseriding shots, “crab” it - noseride the board tilted down on an angle, not flat on the rail. It’ll paddle a little slower because it will push some water, but will be more forgiving on later drops. If you try to bottom turn on the rail, the nose has a better chance of riding it out.
As long as you’re on the back half, turning won’t be much different, one to the next, except for the nose-digging thing if its a bottom turn on a fairly steep wave.
Would you mind posting the aps3000 file? I would like to see how my rocker compares to it.
The white one, if you set the rail, will want to follow the curve & track up & out the top of the wave. So to noseride it, you either have to make your bottom turn, and take 2 or 3 big steps (leaps, almost - think Bonga) all the way to the tip. Midway won’t cut it. You other choice is to use it as a 2+1 and, as shown in the Bert/Sunova noseriding shots, “crab” it - noseride the board tilted down on an angle, not flat on the rail. It’ll paddle a little slower because it will push some water, but will be more forgiving on later drops. If you try to bottom turn on the rail, the nose has a better chance of riding it out.
Very good description! I tried imagining my rocker against these two and it had much more in common with the white board and it rides pretty much like you describe.
Thanks for the observations.
Just to let you know, the black one come from the photos of the harbour rapier of the harbour website, however I’ve checked it against a number of other photos from other manufacturers as well, also most harbour board seems to have a variation over this theme. The general configuration of the rocker is the same or similar, the variation is mainly in how much rocker there are and how far back the apax apears to be. Note that this rocker would come out as a 3 1/2 tail" and a 4 1/2" nose if the apex was put at the center of the board(standard way of messuring rocker). The white one is a Sunova from berts ‘latest creations’ thread. Ripping the rockers from photos, they may not be all that accurate though.
I would expect the black one to trim better from a forward position. However, looking at the more abrubt curve, is it really going to paddle better? The white one is flatter up to about 2’ from the nose. I like the idea of the white one helping against pearling, however I’d like a board that trims well also, suspecting the white one will need to be ridden more like a modern shortboard. Any suggestions for combining antipearaling features while maintaining noseriding and trim?
Need to check these rockers against some blanks. Hope the clark foam images are half accurate atleast, or go with the numbers on them.
regards,
Håvard
Any suggestions for combining antipearaling features while maintaining noseriding and trim?
That’s what I was about to say: make a board with the white rocker and add a concave that will run like the black rocker line.
Many accurate and good points. But final rocker, outline, rail shape and fin will have profound impacts. Wrong setup on these will turn both rockers into dogs. Good setup, both can be superstars.
Quote:Any suggestions for combining antipearaling features while maintaining noseriding and trim?
That’s what I was about to say: make a board with the white rocker and add a concave that will run like the black rocker line.
Well, the black board sure would still have a concave to aid it’s noseriding, but that’s an excellent idea. Maybe add flex in the nose to the equation…
regards,
Håvard
Many accurate and good points. But final rocker, outline, rail shape and fin will have profound impacts. Wrong setup on these will turn both rockers into dogs. Good setup, both can be superstars.
Sure thing. I think that the white rocker will work better with modern or ‘high performance’ longboard features. As bert wrote once, somthing like ‘take you favorite shortboard tail and extend the outline forward to a blunt nose’… I guess tucked under edge and hard edges in the tail, 2+1 or thruster setup. But it needs to be ridden more or less like a thruster as well, constantly turning, even with a single fin.
However, If you still keep the same outline and rails and singlefin but only change the rocker to the black one I have a hard time seeing that board ending up as a dog. Am I way off?
I guess what I really would like would be one of each, keeping the black flatter nose rocker for smaller and mellower conditions, and the white one for slightly larger waves with steeper takeoffs.
regards,
Håvard
Quote:Many accurate and good points. But final rocker, outline, rail shape and fin will have profound impacts. Wrong setup on these will turn both rockers into dogs. Good setup, both can be superstars.
Sure thing. I think that the white rocker will work better with modern or ‘high performance’ longboard features. As bert wrote once, somthing like ‘take you favorite shortboard tail and extend the outline forward to a blunt nose’… I guess tucked under edge and hard edges in the tail, 2+1 or thruster setup. But it needs to be ridden more or less like a thruster as well, constantly turning, even with a single fin.
However, If you still keep the same outline and rails and singlefin but only change the rocker to the black one I have a hard time seeing that board ending up as a dog. Am I way off?
I guess what I really would like would be one of each, keeping the black flatter nose rocker for smaller and mellower conditions, and the white one for slightly larger waves with steeper takeoffs.
regards,
Håvard
[=1] [ 2]A lot of people would call your “shortboard tail and 2 + 1” irreligious on a longboard. But, that is what I have on a 9’2" that originated from a 9’4" R with as much rocker added to the tail as I could get. I love it and its one of the few boards I have held onto for a lot of years – its super fun to ride turn-to-turn and its pretty lean at 17-22-14 and about 2.25 thick. But this is where personal taste and local waves add a whole new set of parameters. [/] Long story short, correctness and perfection of each part of the shape is where performance really shows in my humble experience. Design variations should be pretty subtle or the ride can get pretty weird. I have had a couple of experimentals go horribly wrong and come creeping under the door in the middle of the night. You cannot discover until you explore.[/]
The white one is a Sunova from berts ‘latest creations’ thread. Ripping the rockers from photos, they may not be all that accurate though
I’m surprised to see that my rocker ended up so closely to Berts. I must be guessing better than I thought 
However, looking at the more abrubt curve, is it really going to paddle better? The white one is flatter up to about 2' from the nose.
I’m not a rocker expert but I think that is exactly what makes the black board paddle better. The entry rocker blends further back into the board allowing it to glide through the water rather than push.
It also appears the black tail kicks a little later which should make for a little more tail suction making for better downline noseriding and better for pivot tail turns. (may be over analyzing there)
good thread would be great to see some other comparisons and analysis
Quote:However, looking at the more abrubt curve, is it really going to paddle better? The white one is flatter up to about 2’ from the nose.
I’m not a rocker expert but I think that is exactly what makes the black board paddle better. The entry rocker blends further back into the board allowing it to glide through the water rather than push.
4est: Yes, but since the entry is so long and the final rocker numbers are (roughly) the same, there has to be a section of the rocker with a higher rate of change of the curve (the derivate of the rocker function). Won’t such a rocker with an higher rate of change create drag? Remember reading something someone pointed out that they had found the high rockered tail of a typical noserider NOT to create drag when paddling, the drag occured at much higher speeds, but I don’t have enough experience on this to really tell. One thing though, I think the white board will paddle better when paddling into a steeper wave/later takeoff, just because it will fit the curve of the wave better. Would like some of the longboard experts to chip in with a comment or two as well. Jim, where are you?
Shine, I don’t think bert is very ‘religious’ or should I rather say traditional when it comes to longboard design (or any other design for that matter). Neither are you apparently. All the better. What kind of waves do you maily use the board in, beachbreaks? As I said, I’d like one of each, but if it was possible to combine a fast turning board that handles late take off/steep waves well that also trims and noseride well I’d like that even better.
regards,
Håvard
See if you can grab a tandem board’s rocker & scale it down…
Thickness in the middle, planing out the back, late & pronounced nose flip…make it a red line & overlay it on the others…
(I tried to insert a link to Infinity - www.infinitysurf.com - but their site seems to be down right now. I’m sure there are others…)
Havaard,
You need to know where the point of entry is. A less abrupt curve at the point where the board pushes through the water will paddle better. Bert’s might have more nose curve but it might sit higher in the water when paddling so the entry point is further back. The Harbour board is probably a lot heavier and might sit lower so it needs the flatter curve further up. You often hear people saying that they got a copy of their favourite board but made 1/8 thicker and it paddles better, they then believe the extra bouyancy is making the board paddle better - what’s really happened is the board is floating higher so the entry point has moved back and the angle of entry is shallower.
Havaard,
You need to know where the point of entry is. A less abrupt curve at the point where the board pushes through the water will paddle better. Bert’s might have more nose curve but it might sit higher in the water when paddling so the entry point is further back. The Harbour board is probably a lot heavier and might sit lower so it needs the flatter curve further up. You often hear people saying that they got a copy of their favourite board but made 1/8 thicker and it paddles better, they then believe the extra bouyancy is making the board paddle better - what’s really happened is the board is floating higher so the entry point has moved back and the angle of entry is shallower.
Keep thinking about this, would the white board be paddled more from the tail and the black one from further up front to give it the same point of entry rocker? In that case I guess foil is going to be very critical as well to balance the ideal entry point with the positioning of the surfer.
Does nose concave reduce point of entry drag?
regards,
Håvard
Keep thinking about this, would the white board be paddled more from the tail and the black one from further up front to give it the same point of entry rocker?Håvard
Just the opposite - you’d paddle the white one farther forward to avoid pushing water. The black one, you’d stay back to keep from pearling.
Nose concaves are unnecessary, for either changing rocker or noseriding.
This is what I have said all along, six shapers can come up with 6 versions of the same numbers
