What can the ordinary backyard board shaper do to combat machine shaping. It is ok to have some of it but every know shapers is doing 95 percent of there work on machines. They all have names like the pk rocket, rc-fish retro…making stuff up as to not offend anyone. Even a backyard shaper who does it or the fun of it is threatened becuase face it guys, you can’t just shape for yourself and experiment that way. It is nice to get in some practice, experimentation and feedback from shapes you do for others. What is the real incentive for a guy to go to a backyard shaper. Machine shapes for the “one off” boards can be made cheaper by thoses shapers who have big accounts at KKL and other places. It would be nice if there were machines for the small guy too. Yes, every once in a while you want to produce exact replicas or already made boards, but the machines are so expensive. Any comments? Other than telling me I suck at typing.
there are machines for the backyard guys. at least i know of one here in santa cruz. the guy’s name is marlon and you can take a shaped board to his shop and have it “scanned” then machined however many times you want. the results are good.
What can the ordinary backyard board shaper do to combat machine shaping. > It is ok to have some of it but every know shapers is doing 95 percent of > there work on machines. They all have names like the pk rocket, rc-fish > retro…making stuff up as to not offend anyone.>>> Even a backyard shaper who does it or the fun of it is threatened becuase > face it guys, you can’t just shape for yourself and experiment that way. > It is nice to get in some practice, experimentation and feedback from > shapes you do for others. What is the real incentive for a guy to go to a > backyard shaper. Machine shapes for the “one off” boards can be > made cheaper by thoses shapers who have big accounts at KKL and other > places. It would be nice if there were machines for the small guy too. > Yes, every once in a while you want to produce exact replicas or already > made boards, but the machines are so expensive. I know what you mean, Steve… here
s a little slice of life (and one that many will not agree with, I
m sure) that we, as surfer/craftsmen, can not afford to ignore: in my primary trade of 30+ years, during the last decade, the face of an entire industry has permanently changed because of technology rapidly replacing traditional journeymans skill/labor and the public
s conventional perception of our products. To many “average” consumers on the street, the advantages of the absolute fastest service and lowest prices are obvious and all-important. But what has happened behind the scenes to the talented men and women who create for a living (and drive the very best our industry has to offer) is unfortunately another matter. Nearly gone are the opportunities for personal, intuitive service, the ability and willingness to take the time to listen, interpret and expand upon a clients requests, gone are the endless creative options, the skills and chance to give the customer a little more than what they had originally paid for...and finally, all this is reflected in the basic quality of everything produced. Many have finally chosen to give up, learn new occupations or try and join forces with the changing technology. Plus, with little or no need for industry journeymen, and no jobs waiting in the future for interested persons, no one remains to teach and pass on the knowlege and skills only available through a long apprenticeship and years of practical experience. With no apprentices, the cycle completes itself. At that juncture, from what will the future of true inspiration and innovation (and the skills necessary to give them life) arise? As surfers we should all pay close attention... The primary result of this technological advancement has been a dramatic increase in low-quality, high-volume sales produced by a revolving, low-paying, low-skill labor pool...and a public who no longer seems to understand (or care about) the differences. What used to take a personal commitment of years to even become professionally competant at, is now viewed as irrelevant. Being set free from the various short-term limitations of employing skilled tradesmen has been a Pandora
s Box for the employer and consumer: as profit margins grow smaller, volume must increase, and as volume increases, quality and service turn and simply walk away. So, in order to be competitive with all the other similar low-end, high-volume entities that quickly saturate the market with their products when cheap labor is the norm, many business owners (that are honest with themselves) have had to finally face up to the ominous, silent partner that they thought they controlled: the cruel gods of the lowest common denominator. These tyrants rule a land where the lack of and waste of inspiration, originality, creativity, personal service and quality follow a sloping, predictable, dead-end path to a place where no one ever wins. The ethical and materialistic balance for more than a few of the things that we count as having personal importance, exists somewhere else.
What can the ordinary backyard board shaper do to combat machine shaping. > It is ok to have some of it but every know shapers is doing 95 percent of > there work on machines. They all have names like the pk rocket, rc-fish > retro…making stuff up as to not offend anyone.>>> Even a backyard shaper who does it or the fun of it is threatened becuase > face it guys, you can’t just shape for yourself and experiment that way. > It is nice to get in some practice, experimentation and feedback from > shapes you do for others. What is the real incentive for a guy to go to a > backyard shaper. Machine shapes for the “one off” boards can be > made cheaper by thoses shapers who have big accounts at KKL and other > places. It would be nice if there were machines for the small guy too. > Yes, every once in a while you want to produce exact replicas or already > made boards, but the machines are so expensive. I know what you mean, Steve… here
s a little slice of life (and one that many will not agree with, I
m sure) that we, as surfer/craftsmen, can not afford to ignore: in my primary trade of 30+ years, during the last decade, the face of an entire industry has permanently changed because of technology rapidly replacing traditional journeymans skill/labor and the public
s conventional perception of our products. To many “average” consumers on the street, the advantages of the absolute fastest service and lowest prices are obvious and all-important. But what has happened behind the scenes to the talented men and women who create for a living (and drive the very best our industry has to offer) is unfortunately another matter. Nearly gone are the opportunities for personal, intuitive service, the ability and willingness to take the time to listen, interpret and expand upon a clients requests, gone are the endless creative options, the skills and chance to give the customer a little more than what they had originally paid for...and finally, all this is reflected in the basic quality of everything produced. Many have finally chosen to give up, learn new occupations or try and join forces with the changing technology. Plus, with little or no need for industry journeymen, and no jobs waiting in the future for interested persons, no one remains to teach and pass on the knowlege and skills only available through a long apprenticeship and years of practical experience. With no apprentices, the cycle completes itself. At that juncture, from what will the future of true inspiration and innovation (and the skills necessary to give them life) arise? As surfers we should all pay close attention... The primary result of this technological advancement has been a dramatic increase in low-quality, high-volume sales produced by a revolving, low-paying, low-skill labor pool...and a public who no longer seems to understand (or care about) the differences. What used to take a personal commitment of years to even become professionally competant at, is now viewed as irrelevant. Being set free from the various short-term limitations of employing skilled tradesmen has been a Pandora
s Box for both the employer and consumer: as profit margins grow smaller, volume must increase, and as volume increases, quality and service turn and simply walk away. So, in order to be competitive with all the other similar low-end, high-volume entities that quickly saturate the market with their products when cheap labor is the norm, many business owners (that are honest with themselves) have had to finally face up to the ominous, silent partner that they thought they controlled: the cruel gods of the lowest common denominator. These tyrants rule a land where the lack of and waste of inspiration, originality, creativity, personal service and quality follow a sloping, predictable, dead-end path to a place where no one ever wins. The ethical and materialistic balance for more than a few of the things that we count as having personal importance, exists somewhere else.
I know what you mean, Steve… here
s a little slice of life (and one that > many will not agree with, I
m sure) that we, as surfer/craftsmen, can not > afford to ignore: in my primary trade of 30+ years, during the last > decade, the face of an entire industry has permanently changed because of > technology rapidly replacing traditional journeymans skill/labor and the > public
s conventional perception of our products. To many > “average” consumers on the street, the advantages of the > absolute fastest service and lowest prices are obvious and all-important.>>> But what has happened behind the scenes to the talented men and women who > create for a living (and drive the very best our industry has to offer) is > unfortunately another matter. Nearly gone are the opportunities for > personal, intuitive service, the ability and willingness to take the time > to listen, interpret and expand upon a clients requests, gone are the > endless creative options, the skills and chance to give the customer a > little more than what they had originally paid for...and finally, all this > is reflected in the basic quality of everything produced.>>> Many have finally chosen to give up, learn new occupations or try and join > forces with the changing technology. Plus, with little or no need for > industry journeymen, and no jobs waiting in the future for interested > persons, no one remains to teach and pass on the knowlege and skills only > available through a long apprenticeship and years of practical experience. > With no apprentices, the cycle completes itself. At that juncture, from > what will the future of true inspiration and innovation (and the skills > necessary to give them life) arise? As surfers we should all pay close > attention...>>> The primary result of this technological advancement has been a dramatic > increase in low-quality, high-volume sales produced by a revolving, > low-paying, low-skill labor pool...and a public who no longer seems to > understand (or care about) the differences. What used to take a personal > commitment of years to even become professionally competant at, is now > viewed as irrelevant.>>> Being set free from the various short-term limitations of employing > skilled tradesmen has been a Pandora
s Box for both the employer and > consumer: as profit margins grow smaller, volume must increase, and as > volume increases, quality and service turn and simply walk away.>>> So, in order to be competitive with all the other similar low-end, > high-volume entities that quickly saturate the market with their products > when cheap labor is the norm, many business owners (that are honest with > themselves) have had to finally face up to the ominous, silent partner > that they thought they controlled: the cruel gods of the lowest common > denominator. These tyrants rule a land where the lack of and waste of > inspiration, originality, creativity, personal service and quality follow > a sloping, predictable, dead-end path to a place where no one ever wins.>>> The ethical and materialistic balance for more than a few of the things > that we count as having personal importance, exists somewhere else. What a pile of bullshit. How many absolutes can you count. There are so many good tech. qualities w/ a scanned board. It is only as good as the original, and if you ain’t got soul, it won’t give soul. It has given shapers a chance at making some kind of living out of a very low margin industry. It will never replace experiance and integrity. School’s out, go surfing and make your boards for yourself and your friends. Give them to your friends. It will come back to you.
The place for the backyard shaper will be. That is where most new shapers come from. Machines only rough the board out. It still takes a good finish shaper and GOOD glasser to make the board complete. All of the machines I have see in the NW are rocker and deck cutting machines, not CNC’s. The experimenting will come from individual shapers not machines. The real is incentive is the quality of the product in the end. Machine boards cut cost by probably $20 a board. Not much considering that many boards are ghost shaped. The biggest advantage of machine board is consistent rough shape needed to mass production. http://www.viser.net/~anthwind
I know what you mean, Steve… here
s a little slice of life (and one that > many will not agree with, I
m sure) that we, as surfer/craftsmen, can not > afford to ignore: in my primary trade of 30+ years, during the last … Amen. This is correct with every industry. It would even be nice to have a nice handcrafted wallet or shoes. Although I am a poor sob, I get custom made products. I’d rather have custom cabinets instead of Millspride HomeDepot pre-fabs. I’d rather have an original painting from a local painter than master’s prints. You are a very good writer, hope you are writing for a living. Sounds like you like to write, might as well make a living at it, before they get analytical computers that can write commentaries…scary
The place for the backyard shaper will be. That is where most new shapers > come from. Machines only rough the board out. It still takes a good finish > shaper and GOOD glasser to make the board complete. All of the machines I > have see in the NW are rocker and deck cutting machines, not CNC’s. The > experimenting will come from individual shapers not machines. The real is > incentive is the quality of the product in the end. Machine boards cut > cost by probably $20 a board. Not much considering that many boards are > ghost shaped. The biggest advantage of machine board is consistent rough > shape needed to mass production. Yes, but the price of boards from the big guys, Rusty and Al have not gone down. Their incentive like everyones, profit, has gone up.
Yes, but the price of boards from the big guys, Rusty and Al have not gone > down. Their incentive like everyones, profit, has gone up. My main point was to demonstrate what has already happened in certain professions that were once driven by highly skilled artisans and what could also happen within surfing. As for human shapers vs. a machined design, I
m pleased if what I previously wrote was offensive to some... in truth, I personally feel that the answer lies in somehow balancing the best of BOTH worlds, old and new. In my dreams, everyone with a passion to create surfcraft for a living, would have their own CNC milling equipment and open access to the very best materials (cost is not a factor in this fantasy)... another surfboard design revolution would take place, this time with the sword of modern technology being wielded primarily by our curiousity, inspiration and what actually works. Like I said, only my dream... but consider: George Greenough is a living example of what just one person can do, possessed by intuitive curiousity and talent, without marketing considerations or profit margins, operating as a powerful catalyst OUTSIDE the mainstream of surfing, yet dramatically affecting how surfcraft are approached for decades... and ironically, much of all that is now so widely applied that it is taken for granted. As technology makes inroads into what was once the domain of traditional craftsmen, and as their former market demand decreases, the cost of their chosen materials and tools increase, the quality of these things will likely decrease and their availablity will be lessened, or cease. This forces the tradesman to raise his/her prices, which carries them even farther from the competitive arena and the individuals who recognize the qualitative differences and are willing (and able) to pay the extra cost. Prospective consumers often will wonder out loud as to why our prices are so high in comparison to "similar" mass-produced items. And having to explain why this is so, gets old fast. In the end, a few craftsmen may be very successful, even less will exist financially immune from monetary constraints, many more (in spite of what they have to offer) will struggle to continue and find enough profit in what they love and have dedicated years in developing, to adequately sustain a business/family... and the rest will just simply disappear. I have been reminded many times that there would always be place for individuals who create and base their income on a high-quality, low-volume level, but the fact of the matter is, there seems to be less and less of those types of opportunities available. An outstanding text on this subject, specific to surfboard shaping, may be found in a recent issue of The Surfer
s Journal, in an article by Paul Gross called, “Transitions”. With historical clarity, he demonstrates that for many of us existing within the bounds of surfing, at the point which we have the most to give, we also have the most to loose.
What can the ordinary backyard board shaper do to combat machine shaping. > It is ok to have some of it but every know shapers is doing 95 percent of > there work on machines. They all have names like the pk rocket, rc-fish > retro…making stuff up as to not offend anyone.>>> Even a backyard shaper who does it or the fun of it is threatened becuase > face it guys, you can’t just shape for yourself and experiment that way. > It is nice to get in some practice, experimentation and feedback from > shapes you do for others. What is the real incentive for a guy to go to a > backyard shaper. Machine shapes for the “one off” boards can be > made cheaper by thoses shapers who have big accounts at KKL and other > places. It would be nice if there were machines for the small guy too. > Yes, every once in a while you want to produce exact replicas or already > made boards, but the machines are so expensive. First of all, it doesn’t matter if you are Al or Joe Schmuck, it costs the same to get a board scanned and programmed. I do machine for the larger contracts and mostly hand shapes for the rest. Where is this fear factor about the machine? I had to beg early on to get people to let me shape them boards, for free! There is no incentive to go to the back yard, novice shaper, other than cheapo deals. The experience isn’t there, it’s a sad but real picture. I stuck it out, ate crow and now 40 years later can afford the newspaper and turn away those who want the cheapo deal. There is no future in giving away hard learned skills for next to nothing.>>> Any comments? Other than telling me I suck at typing. http://www.JimtheGenius@aol.com
Yes, but the price of boards from the big guys, Rusty and Al have not gone > down. Their incentive like everyones, profit, has gone up. Boards off the machines, do not cost 20.oo$ less to build. The cost of the machining almost matches the cost of a hand shape. Then add on the cost of finishing the blank, your 20-35$ over the price of a hand shape. It simply allows the manufacturer to produce the same design over again at a greater volume. I often see masters at KKL, by God knows who, that are so FREAKING CRUDE that it makes me want to puke, but they have the cash to get them scanned so they can reproduce the same piece of trash over again for some unknowlegeble paying customer. The machine is a two sided sword. http://www.JimtheGenius@aol.com
I agree w/ the Jim. I have seen some bad plugs for scanning, resulting in boards that are very crude. In fact the computer duplicates 1/2 identically makes the shaper look more complete. One should realize that w/ the advent of new technology , it gives the pro shape an opportunity to incriece the cost for a custom shape. not much, but some. It is my belief that surfboard craftsmanship involves many people in a long line of under paid workers. The compainers should realize that $500.00 boards are a bargin. They should be twice the cost to keep the insentive more interesting for a desent living. Why should a Yater or a Martinson hog out those step decks by hand, when the technology is there to keep up w/ the demand. Plus the waste and cost of disposal is not in your shop. As a craftsman who uses power tools , I see no reason why anyone could’nt see this as good for the progession of surfboard construction. The by product of inexperience will always shine through if it is used in a cheap way.
There is no incentive to go to the back yard, > novice shaper, other than cheapo deals. Jim, you’re wrong here. There’s lots of young/ new guys that want the chance to shape a board for someone. The novice shaper is going to listen to you personally…and be stoked your having him shape you a board. The big guys won’t do that. You think I can get a sit down with Pat Rawson and have him hand shape me a pipe gun for under million dollars? I’m not so sure. The experience isn’t there, it’s a > sad but real picture. I stuck it out, ate crow and now 40 years later can > afford the newspaper and turn away those who want the cheapo deal. Probably shaping a few “cheapo” boards for some pals and learning a hell of a lot doing it. Heck those cheapo logs may even be worth something in a few years! There > is no future in giving away hard learned skills for next to nothing. That’s fine as you shouldn’t. But I think the main point of contention in this thread is what do machines that spit out sweet, perfect Al Merricks that retail for $500 do to the young, up and coming shapers? (Sorry to the glassers – I realize your hand work is still all over these boards) What’s the incentive to shape boards and possibly start a business when any old kook can pick up a Ferrari for the price of a Dodge Dart? I would be the first to agree that you can’t stop technology – and that technology can produce great advancements. It’s just are we going to be looking back nostalgically in 50 years saying “Man, the late 20’th century was when boards really were a work of art”? Or are we going to be looking back saying “Man, I can’t believe that they actually rode those things?” Swaylock
There is no incentive to go to the back yard,>>> Jim, you’re wrong here. There’s lots of young/ new guys that want the > chance to shape a board for someone. The novice shaper is going to listen > to you personally…and be stoked your having him shape you a board. The > big guys won’t do that. You think I can get a sit down with Pat Rawson and > have him hand shape me a pipe gun for under million dollars? I’m not so > sure.>>> The experience isn’t there, it’s a>>> Probably shaping a few “cheapo” boards for some pals and > learning a hell of a lot doing it. Heck those cheapo logs may even be > worth something in a few years!>>> There>>> That’s fine as you shouldn’t. But I think the main point of contention in > this thread is what do machines that spit out sweet, perfect Al Merricks > that retail for $500 do to the young, up and coming shapers? (Sorry to the > glassers – I realize your hand work is still all over these boards) > What’s the incentive to shape boards and possibly start a business when > any old kook can pick up a Ferrari for the price of a Dodge Dart?>>> I would be the first to agree that you can’t stop technology – and that > technology can produce great advancements. It’s just are we going to be > looking back nostalgically in 50 years saying “Man, the late 20’th > century was when boards really were a work of art”? Or are we going > to be looking back saying “Man, I can’t believe that they actually > rode those things?”>>> Swaylock And perhaps at the dawn of another era, a dimly nostalgic question might be, “When (or why?) were these things ever put together by hand?” Here`s a scenario: in the archeological digs of the far distant future, the remaining flotsom and jetsom of our present civilization may preserve, intact, at least a few of our finest surfboards… and that although those who discover them will perhaps not be able to discern their original purpose, they will nevertheless recognise and appreciate the subtle, sculpted lines and beauty of form, accepting and displaying them in their museums as nothing more than mysteriously inspired and unknown ART OBJECTS, created by human hands so long before.
There is no incentive to go to the back yard,>>> Jim, you’re wrong here. There’s lots of young/ new guys that want the > chance to shape a board for someone. The novice shaper is going to listen > to you personally…and be stoked your having him shape you a board. The > big guys won’t do that. You think I can get a sit down with Pat Rawson and > have him hand shape me a pipe gun for under million dollars? I’m not so > sure.>>> The experience isn’t there, it’s a>>> Probably shaping a few “cheapo” boards for some pals and > learning a hell of a lot doing it. Heck those cheapo logs may even be > worth something in a few years! The inexperienced shaper will always have to play second fiddle to a “name”. I even am passed over for someone sweeter in the buying customers mind for a shaper of superior caliber in a particular area. I could shape an excellent gun for pipe, but you would see Rawsons name on many more before you’ll find one of my boards next to it. There is no replacement for experience, I am the first to offer assistance to those coming up through the ranks. But in this age of 2$ plus for gas and the rest of living expenses skyrocketing, who can afford to apprentice on the coattails of a pro for 5 years earning next to nothing. You do not get good at this unless you can put in MANY hours in the trenches at next to no pay. I “learned” on my own for 5 years, making many mistakes, some were bad habits that I knew no other way. Had it not been for Tinker at Challenger taking me in when he saw that there was a potential, I would have been, say an OK shaper with bad habits. Cordell Miller is a fine example of a good surfer with not an iota of shaping ability. Retailers that bought his boards were barely able to give them away, with them sitting on the racks for a year. It is a real waiting game if becoming a shaper for pay pay is the end goal. The odds are most likely that of becoming an NFL Starter. Not many have the resources to wait it out or get on as an apprentice to a top shelf shaper. That leaves scrambling around with the rest of the dogs for the fallen scraps as a backyard shaper. I was there, hell I’m still there, there are no guarantees! But I like all of the rest of you, love the feel of taking raw materials and creating a functional piece of industrial art. We are artists first and bread winners second. Why did we do this in the first place? Until you become a skilled journeyman, you’ll take a lot of jabs jockying for those scraps.>>> There>>> That’s fine as you shouldn’t. But I think the main point of contention in > this thread is what do machines that spit out sweet, perfect Al Merricks > that retail for $500 do to the young, up and coming shapers? (Sorry to the > glassers – I realize your hand work is still all over these boards) > What’s the incentive to shape boards and possibly start a business when > any old kook can pick up a Ferrari for the price of a Dodge Dart?>>> I would be the first to agree that you can’t stop technology – and that > technology can produce great advancements. It’s just are we going to be > looking back nostalgically in 50 years saying “Man, the late 20’th > century was when boards really were a work of art”? Or are we going > to be looking back saying “Man, I can’t believe that they actually > rode those things?”>>> Swaylock http://www.JimtheGenius@aol.com
Backyard shapers who hate Al Merrick for selling his boards $500 retail need to take a deep breath. If Al decided to sell his boards for $300 it would spell doom for the backyard shaper. In fact all of you should encourage him to sell his boards for $700. That just widens the gap of the cutomers who have money. The more exspensive Channel Islands get, the more people will seek out local backyard guys. Also, it is poor to bad mouth Al’s boards and then use his series of fine tuned blanks with the rocker already put in. I see backyard shapes with Al’s outlines and fin templates. Also, it is a myth that Al never uses his planer. How do you think he comes up with new designs? Many experimental team boards are hand planed. Al has lived a quiet humble life. Channel Islands Surfboards may be the establishment, but it is not an evil empire.
Okay,I would like to see board prices up to a better profit margin! there’s nothing wrong with making a fair wage,and surfboards builders have been underpaid for too long!Herb.
I hope no one misunderstood my last post to this thread. I’m not knocking AM or Rawson or Jim or anybody. I was just trying to say wouldn’t it be a shame to loose the younger, unknown, professional shapers because they are simply unable to compete with “mass produced” boards of equal or even better quality? I think, with out question, yes. Steve, cut it out with these ridiculous threads! http://216.15.61.234/swaylocks/boards/db.cgi?uid=default
I was just trying to say wouldn’t it be a shame to loose the younger, > unknown, professional shapers because they are simply unable to compete > with “mass produced” boards of equal or even better quality? I > think, with out question, yes. There is no competition. I think people should ride boards from there local areas. It’s not hard to see that the AL’s and R’s are sell outs. sorry for the NM…