No apologies necessary Pembs628. I can see this is a rather hot subject.
I believe there are a couple of issues going on in this thread…
fish surfboards. Obviously they are hot right now. I’ve seen some recent videos and admit I like the way those fishes look on a wave. I hadn’t thought about them, (twins anyway) for a loooong time. Been riding longboards for quite a while. The fish seemed like a good board to go to from longboards. I had Larry Mabile shape me a 7’4" twinzer last year. (see, I was scared to go too short). Just recently got a 6’6" Mabile twinzer from the surf shop. Way more fun than the 7’4". Anyway I’ve been reading the archives here at swaylocks for about a year or so now and obviously Mandala surfboards come up a lot…seems it’s always about something like…"not sure if I should get the mandala quad or go with the pavel speed dialer, either way it’s a long wait but man, I gotta friend who has a canard turbo quad and dude!..
anyway…
shapers. I’m 48 years old. I started surfing when I was 13 in Honolulu (well, paipo boarded the first year). Back then people would wait for however long it took to get a board from Dick Brewer. Now I’m not saying Manny is in the same league as Brewer. I’m also not saying he isn’t. I don’t know him. I just know what I read on
swaylocks. The guy is obviously making a good surfboard. And for the moment, as I have never made a board, that is all that matters to me.
I have heard some folks have waited longer for Pavels…
I know I would have lost interest in about 3 weeks…what? oh I change my mind, I would like a pro shortboard shape instead… another month later, oh crap I change mind again make that a longboard. no wait I change my…
True True…I hear you Ship
I know some people in NY that wait FOREVER for those Pavel’s but they say nothing but great things once they have them. I waited about 16 weeks for my MC Bonzer. (but it did not bother me I have plenty of 2-SI’s to ride).
I also agree about that “changing mind” thing. (I have no idea of how myny boards I went through this year. Literally in the past 18 months I have changed %90 of what I ride. Thats roughly a 7-10 board quiver.
Hi I too ordered one from Manny and it arrived 6 months late… his sander dissapeared to Mexico or something…
I love my board to bits and more than a few people have paddled over in the lineup and enquired about it. It absolutely flies and I make sections on it that I would never ever make on a standard board.
A mate watching one day said to me “you had the fastest board out there by a long way today. You were noticeably quicker than the the other surfers…”
The down sides are as follows:
I’ve noticed Manny has set the lokbox fins incorrectly. I recently landed on a fin, snapping it and had to have the box reglassed as it had stress fractures all over it and a lump of glass was missing…I didnt expect this from a wipeout tbh
The repair I had done was great but it was the 1st time I’d really studied the the lokboxes themselves, I’d looked at the fins and admired them but not really noticed the gap between the fin boxes and it is WAY OUT!!!
I did mail manny about my board at the time to give feed back etc and did mention I was wiping out alot esp going left and I think this could be part of the problem…At the time I just put it down to riding a new board and a quad for the first time.
When you look at the cant - I’ve got turbo quad set up, there’s a noticeable difference in the gap between the fins compared to the other side - I’m talking a gap of about 5mm > 1cm!
I’ve compensated this now by moving by fin back so it is in line with the opposing one which has helped.
I’ll post up pic tomorrow if I have time so you can see what I mean - the gap between the fins on the left is a good bit narrower than the gap between the two fins on the right!
A shaper pal of mine reckoned it was an error caused by using a template for a board with full stringer - I opted for the flexible tail…
Now being in the UK there’s not a hell of a lot I can do about this…it’s a shame as I love my board to bits but it does have a major flaw in it.
Going right it absolutely flies and I’ve had some great waves on it. It turns on a dime
for the amount of money it cost, I’d expect to have better finish - the tint is great but some areas req more sanding and care taken. UK boards are finished off to a far higher standard IMO.
In my case as I have a now have a beautiful board which was delivered 6 months late. It’s hard to chase up a late board across the Atlantic via e-mail too! ;0
His customer service is poor but I think this is prob a mixture of Cali laid backness and generally being very busy!
Manny is a busy guy, perhaps too busy - I think he needs to take on some more help, someone who can look after the customer side of the business or he’s going to lose out.
Would I buy another? Don’t know…probably not, unless I could pick it up in person in the states and inspect it carefully.
then WHY THE F*** would you want to wait five months for a blooming SURFBOARD , of all things ???
And WHY shouls shapers be allowed to get away with it ? WHO do they think they are , gods or something ? It’s pathetic , I reckon .
I hope they lose your , and lots of other people’s, business.
Only in the surf [and possibly building industry] would such shoddy service exist .
I don’t care HOW “popular” or “busy” the shaper is …that is just plain UNACCEPTABLE !!
ben
Quote:
chip , that comment is so far removed from reality …
it sounds like you think every shaper owes you something …
just coz a guy is busy , doesnt mean he wants or should have to run a large business with all its stresses , just so you can have your board on time …
you think if he took the boards to a glassing house to get them done quicker , he would still have the same reputation of quality ???
what would you do if you had a 5 month wait and you were working to your capacity ???
please answer …
crew who dont run or have never run a business , just have no idea …
until you put your balls on the line and your paying rent on a few factories and a shop , plus your mortgage and youve got surfers who work for you who feel they can turn up when they like coz the surf is pumping , but your landlord is coming around the next day to pick up 3000 dollars rent , youve got customers due that afternoon to pick up 4000 worth of boards , and you have staff who would rather surf or come in with hangovers and fried off there brains , the boards dont get done , the customers think your an asshole , and the landlord wants to sue you …
so youve got more work than you can possibly do …
the customers waving money …
a factory all decked out for production …
all the expenses to support it all …
ok chip what would you do ???
and on top of that retailers who take 6 months to pay there bills just to add that bit more pressure , while ordering a container of surftechs , using the excuse that you take to long …
staff who would rather build there own boards , poaching your stuff and pocketing the cash while your own work gets left unattended …
so basically manny can either have that life just so you dont have to wait , or he can go to indo , go surfing and enjoy himself and enjoy his job by delivering the highest quality work coz he loves it and his heart is in it , keep his reputation of quality …
which one would you rather ???
you to can have that lifestyle if you build high quality boards that work …
i think its UNACCEPTABLE , that a guy walks in off the street and expects to be treated like a god and have you build him a board like he is the only one who exists …
if you cant wait in line , go find a shorter line , and if no other line exists , bad luck …
i bet you can go surfing and enjoy it and nobody calls you a slacker , yet if a busy shaper goes for a surf , everyone says hey wheres my board , you should be working , your a slacker …
like you should be there slave get there board done and have no time for yourself …
what would you say if youve just worked an average of 70 hours a week worked for a month straight , and a customer walks in and says your slack coz his board isnt done ???
if you think its that easy , i suggest you start a surfboard business , then you will appreciate manny’s work and his whole outlook …
the wait was killer the board was a beaut and worth the wait but…
probably the full last custom I’ll ever buy because of it
cause before that…
ordered a custom Gemini in March 2004 received September 2004
missed the whole southshore summer season it was intended for.
both were promised in 6 weeks both were paid for 100% up front plus more later just to get them.
If I ran my business that way I’d either be in small claims court, on TV’s consumer Action Line or out of business.
Bottomline
If the blanks are being machine cut there’s no excuse for 6 months other than you’re doing something else with the money in the meantime or you’re staging your work to get the biggest bang for your buck for the post shaping stuff. Disclose the wait up front no problem. Someone pays in full upfront they should go to the head of the line or refuse to take the money. Otherwise there’s tons of really good stuff you can get off the shelf, you just got to go out and look… Example here in Hawaii is a great little re-encarnated shop called Tropical Blends, I’m sure there’s others in every surf city. Find’em-Feel’em-Like’em-Buy’em-Ride’em-Sell’em then do it again, Why wait? Is it really going to be that much better or isit just your imagination.
Moral of the story…
went to CMP in December with an idea for an unreal christmas present… 2-3 weeks later a veteran walked a gremmie in building a balsa epoxied custom Gemini doing alot of the work himself. The end result was worth more than anything paid to either of the previous two board makers.
“All I can say is that I wouldn’t expect to be treated any different than any other customer. Neither preferential nor detrimental. That seems like the honourable way to behave.”
In theory you’re right, and that’s a fine ideal. But in reality, our lives seldom go the way we want them to, let alone someone else’s! Sometimes it’s better to weigh on the side of a little grace and sense of humor.
The same is true for riding a wave. A person can choose to learn from imperfection, flat spots and sections, or just kick out.
–Good stuff there!
I like what Rick Holt said also! I got a Lis from Stevie on Kauai and it is a gem! We use to wait a long time for his boards 30 yrs ago ! Still, 30 yrs later well worth the wait… try one of his quads or 5fins!
I hate to do this but someone probably needs to say it…
For all you “businessmen” in the “surfboard building and sales business”
two hypotheticals from my side of the table.
Hypothetical case #1:
Let’s say I advertise that I can make you a 100% percent return on your investment in 6 weeks but you need to drop $100,000 upfront for starters. Several months later you see or hear nothing from me and only after significant pestering do you actually get anything back from me only only because I found a bunch of other suckers to front me their $100,000 with the same idea. Now what do you call that, the cost of doing business or a pyramid scheme? I guess it depends on which side of the initiall $100,000 you are on…
Hypothetical case #2
Let’s say you come to my business begging for a $500,000 note so you can buy that new building you found in the perfect location to setup your up and coming “surfboard building and selling business”. Let’s say I demand a 25% down payment but delay the processing of your loan request so long that you miss the opportunity to get the place. You get you money but now can’t find a place you need for the same price…
What do you call that? The cost of doing business… or are you going to take me to court and sue me or report me to some government regulator or attorney general…
Business is business your in it to do it right or you don’t belong doing it…
That’s why the owners, CEO’s, or senior executives of the biggest or smallest successful businesses never settle for lame excuses from the others they have to do business with.
I wish one day “surfboard building and selling” entries would grow up and get out of the rip-off mentality. There’s alot of good example of hardworking folks in the same line of work that not only take pride in what they do but deliver on their promises and respects the clients that deserve respect.
And yes if surfers as a whole get out of the whole freeloader mentality and treat and demand from the rest of the industry the same respect they give their dentist or docter things would change for the better…
But there’s no excuse for being a bad business person…
You won’t settle to be treated that way from me so I should expect the same from you…
PS…
I want to make it clear that this isn’t a take down on Manuel or Jeff, they’re both great guys whose work I love dearly but have the same production issues. I just wish this cottage industry would grow up.
It’s a hypocrasy to have these same type of folk place the same expectations on people and businesses they come to for monetary or sourcing assistance they need to survive then go around and do the exact opposite to their customers…
Believe me philosophically in the end, the taxman will always collect what he’s due…
I’ve got two Mandalas, a 5’8 twin keel and a 5’11 canard quad. The twin keel I waited nearly 8 months for about two years ago, while I traded someone for the quad. Both boards work great and are holding up incredibly well.
I recently received a 6’7 quad from Pavel, and a 5’5 Steve Lis twin keel, both glassed at Moonlight and with wooden Geppies…signed and dated by LG himself.
The craftsmenship on these boards is top notch. The design elements are beyond description. Rails contours, templates, fin placement, and other subtle aspects of these shapes…out of sight. Boards were ordered in February and delivered last week. Price never discussed. Email and phone contact with Rich and Moonbase throughout the process; conversations with Pavel often had nothing to do with the boards ordered and instead covered a wide varity of topics, both surfwise and otherwise. Thanks also to Liquid for insight into Lis and getting me stoked on what to expect.
I would order another Lis / Pavel tomorrow and happily wait. I’ve seen enough fish shapes from other shapers to know that picking the right shaper is paramount.
quote found online regarding Lis back in the day:
"Lis didnt make kneeboards for every kneeboarder who
wanted one. Many people would order and never get one.
Supposedly he was a spendthrift who could make $100 last
a couple of weeks and wasnt money motivated.
I had money on deposit with him for 1 yr
once before I reclaimed my deposit."
my new boards…
We just had a similar situation on our local message board. My response is below…note that the original attack was quite bitter and I felt some things had to be said. As a result, I may have gone a bit overboard…ha ha ha
OK, first of all, I’m almost inclined to take this thread down as froth suggest, because I don’t think it’s doing anyone involved any favors…
HOWEVER…I have instead decided to try and set some things straight.
First of all, it’s true that Chizler has been waiting a long time for his board. However, it’s important to remember that Manny started out as basically a backyard shaper and in the last two years, demand for his boards has skyrocketed. As pointed out, aside from glassing, he is a one man operation. He does not keep blanks in stock and orders them when needed and a deposit is received. I assume the Japanese have been bombarding him with orders, as well.
I had a discussion with Rich Pavel about Manny’s operation, and basically Rich said that Manny got in over his head and and they were going to help him streamline his operation and come up with a better work flow. That his problem is that he has not yet learned to say “no”…basically, that he is too nice a guy. Not someone who is trying to fuck people over by any means.
You also have to remember that demand is not only up on shapers, but also on glass houses for insane airbrushes (Taylor Knox style), tinted resin work (a la Tudor), wood fins, leash loops, gloss coats, volan, etc…all of this, combined with “surfer labor” creates potential for delay.
Shapers such as Pavel are established and know how to deal with these type of things. And even then, it takes forever. Simply put, if you want a certain quality of surfboard, from a certain group of shapers and glass houses, you MUST be willing to wait. Most of these people are super-cool and friendly straight up cats…but THEY DON’T NEED YOUR BUSINESS! You need to be persistent and keep dropping reminders, but there’s a certain reality you need to accept. A certain underground fish legend’s wife just sent my friend who has two boards on order an email asking that he keep checking in and reminding them of his boards.
You also need to remember that when ordering your first board from a shaper, you are really just a voice on the phone or a bunch of letters on a screen. So you might just have to wait or get pushed back a bit. It helps to try and make a bit of a better connection…a bottle of wine, a photo of yourself surfing the local break, some new york bagels sent out…whatever it takes to make you an actual identity in their mind.
To put some of this in perspective…I ordered my Lis and my Pavel in February. The boards are sitting out at Moonlight as I type this. So I’ve actually been waiting longer than Chizler. I talk to Pavel fairly frequently on the phone and through email. Same goes with the moonbase crew. I’d even go so far to say that these people could be called friends of mine. A certain fish shaper has a photo of yours truly hanging up in his shaping room…never once did I even remotely complain to Rich about how long it was taking (boards finally done, need to be shipped).
As for Malcolm, he goes through cycles, and just because he’s done boards quickly in the past, doesn’t mean it will be that way in the future. It also helps to note that moonbase has streamlined his operations and is helping him fufill orders. Probably also does not hurt that his day job is in the Channel Islands factory.
Also note that certain blanks are occassionally hard to come by. Factor in more delays for that.
My two Mandalas are flat out sick shapes that have been proven in solid surf. They are true fish. Not to knock any local shapers, or other California or Florida shapers making what some people call fish, but if you want the ital vital real deal fish, there are certain shapers who have risen above the pack.
I believe I waited nearly 8 months two years ago for my first Manny. I’d think long and hard before cancelling or posting any more things like this.
As for the board orders, it may appear that some people are getting boards quicker, when that reall is not the case. For example, the new bonzer fish froth just received was shaped and available…froth just beat all you other suckers to the punch.
CI fishes and Kane Gardens seem to be readily available in shops. Many other good fish shapes and bonzer style boards can also be found on the racks both locally and in other States. No need for a custom if you can’t deal with what goes along with one…
By the way, boards from Pavel and Lis, and to a lesser extent Malcolm, are VERY EXPENSIVE.
Also, when ordering customs, it helps to keep this old saying in your head…“you pays your money, you takes your chances”…be prpared for orange boards instead of yellow and 6’7’s instead of 6’8’s.
In a way, I hope this does discourage people from seeking out these shapers, because if you can’t appreciate the process, and the significance of it to the rapidly fading concept of shaping culture, then maybe you don’t deserve one of these boards and would do better at the local shop…
This post has been edited by nydubstar on Oct 17 2005, 11:22 PM
Something to think about - The worst way to build a surfboard is in a hurry. I see lots of people pressuring shapers and glassers to get their boards done faster, then when they get it rushed through, and it doesn’t come out perfect, they go on a public forum and complain about the quality of the board. Many glassers understand the time it takes to build a board properly. In some cases they may actually be stoked if an impatient customer gets fed up and cancels his order. In the long run they will be better off reputation wise. If you want a fully customized surfboard ie… your name, your choice of color,stringer…fins etc… it takes time. If you value your money (most people do) you will be more stoked with a well built board that took a while, than a board you got fast that isn’t built well. You must also consider that many factors could be involved with you board taking a long time.
I remember years ago when Timmy Pattersons irreplaceable sander got all messed up in a car accident in mexico and couldn’t work for weeks. . Once you get that well oiled machine going with your crew, the last thing you want to do is to try and train a replacement in 1/4 the time it takes to train him properly. Your reputation can get ruined if you put out a bunch of lesser quality boards when you reputation is built around well built boards. Could be clark foam out of a particular blank and they are backed up.
If you look at the responses by people that get Manny’s or Pavels boards, almost every single person is stoked, or says well worth the wait!! The internet has helped alot of us grow our businesses, but at the same time it can open the proverbial can 'o worms as more and more people in the far reaches of the globe want these products because they now have a computer and high speed internet service.
I know Manny personally and he is not guilty of the accusations made of him on this thread. He’s a solid guy that really does care about his customers, but unfortunately the demand has surpassed his ability to supply. I would imagine he’s scrambling around trying to come up with ways to make it better. If he’s out surfing once in a while then good on him because that’s what we’re all here for. In an industry where demand is skyrocketing and profit margins are plummeting, one of the few things that make it still worthwhile doing is the fact that when the surf comes up we can go hit it.
Good onya dubstar. I remember that discussion you reposted here. I’ve never ordered a custom board, finding more joy in the seek and ye shall find pleasures of garage sales, pawn shops and second hand racks. However when I do order a custom, it will be from somebody like Manny or Lis or Pavel because I appreciate what these guys do, all the more now that I am up to my ass in my first shaping experiment.
There is a bit of a mystique about ordering a ‘quality’ shape from a ecentric shaper…Does it make it a better board than you local guy…Maybe or maybe not, depends. Yes I have been dissapointed and stoked after the result of long waits from these type of shapers/labels. I have learned and I know who I will use in the future and who I will not.
Honestly, it does not matter and I will tell you why.
We all got into surfing because it was fun not because we had too.
If the antciapation of waiting for something adds to the stoke of it…well so be it. Who cares. It like X-mas or something.
All I have to say is that if you do end up waiting for something and it
end up taking months. I hope it comes out the way you ordered it and
to all, i am new to the business side of things. i was a backyarder, and may still be considered that by the large companies, making my boards for friends quickly, because it was one at a time, start to finish. however, now that i am in business, that all goes out the window. trust me i want it to work the same, as i amsure most builders do. laid back, customers happy to come buy and visit, all the time to talk shop with everyone. but, thats not reality.
i dont know anyone who wants to have stress in their lives, especially when it is caused by working at something you love.
if a shaper makes a good board, he’s busy. that is why guys use the shaping machines. basically, it is on his website that it takes 5 months, so there you go.
lets not make this a battle, after all we are here to share info, and lets leave the egos, and grief out of this shall we?
