Matt Biolos (Mayhem of ...Lost) takes some cheap shots at Greg L.

Industry Talk
1

You guys may have already seen this posted on the surfermag BB but if not - I’m not sure if Greg has a degree in Chemical Engineering or not but he is a bright guy and RR is a well-researched, quality epoxy resin (in my opinion)… Here are some excerpts - I hope they are not too out of context… I side w/. Greg…

Excerpt:

"Spent the entire day with an epoxy Chemist that makess Greg Lohr sound like Buckwheat from the little rascals (No offence).

Learned more about resin in 6 hours than 20 years.

Peoplwho actually know about resins and such are finally starting to take interest in our world. It will get better, but cost more.

I was wondering why it took 50 posts before we got the Japan Car analogy…Its great, but doesnt solve the CUSTOM issue…and most of the guys on these threads and ingeneral LOVE custom (it is what makes our passion and sport so unique and cool) .

Japan and China are not the answer to that issue.

Even if they last long and cost less…its still not like CUSTOM baby…Custom…Like a Harley chopper or Low rider, or a good suit for your buddys wedding…fits you ass just right.

this is the challenge. "

Excerpt:

"I am not against epoxy at all (I dont know why his rebuttal assumed this) I’ve probably put more “epoxies” under the feet of pro surfers than anyone in the world in the last 3 years (before clark) including XTR, Brasilian styrofoam, Saloman S Cores, Aviso and Epoxie resin laminated PU blanks.

I do think the baseball analogy he made is well said, but aluminum bats would erase all the past records and tradition of baseball and probably ruin the games whole appeal (like a world of popout surfboards would do to ours)

I cant understand any of his other rebuttals as they are mostly wrong, off the cuff, unresearch opinions of one man.The best example is of him using his own expierience with snowboarding as a litmus for the durability of snowboards…What would a middle aged man from Florida do on a snowboard to push its boundries???Is he hitting 40’ table tops? Sliding down handrails, funbox’s or stairs? I seriously doubt it.

On the real front though…

I do think Mr Loehrs resin is not well “RESEARCHED”

I think it can be alot better, but because he has had no competition up till now he has been able to pawn off his so so product uncontested. I think this will change now with the attention of so many new faces to our market.

So Mr Loehr is alot like Clark…Hes been selling on a monopoly an (arguably) outdated un “researched” product and now, new competition will bring out better more user freindy epoxies.He is the one who stands to lose the most from all this…Not people like me who are open to all things and always push for better performance as the NUMBER 1 PRIORITY!!!

I am more anti styrofoam than epoxy resin.

There is no “research” in styrofoam. It soaks water, its soft, not pretty, doesnt shape as well as PU,Blows gas, needs too much glass (the 2.5lb is actually pretty decent stuff on most matters) and its all readily available to any idiot who wants to by a truckload and hack it into blanks then come to my shop and tell me that they are a blank supplier. Then they cant deliver.

So rather than sitting back and shlepping this mediocre foam that needs so much glass on it to not be squeezed to mush on the retail floor that it loses most of its flex, why dont the finger pointing epoxy pundits DESIGN a foam for surfboards specifically, and quit relying on this mass produced cooler foam.

Whats so cool about styro foam? its styrofoam for christs sake. its not egineered for surfboards…BUT all the new PU

blanks popping up are DESIGNED for surfboards…not coffee cups.The excitement right now is in the 6 or so new PU blank makers trying to make the best SURFBOARD foam possible. Using MDI based PU is a great concept being pushed now (No TDI)PU blanks will become more light and firm and can be glassed with little cloth to remain lively…

I see a future of GOOD, NEW epoxies and Great new PU blanks combined to make the best boards ever. I am talking about an epoxy that is UV curing or somthing like that , so it has a instant flip time and factories will not need to be completly redesigned to operate with it. There is less waste and the increased cost of the resin is somewhat negated due to less used per board. These are the types of things coming soon from actual CHEMISTS who are now interested in our industry.Unfortunatly for Mr Loehr…If he doesnt improve his resin…he and his splinter faction of loyal followers will be the ones left behind.

So the way I see it, …Lost has brought to market many many different ways to make boards that are stronger and lighter, and has looked at all options, and offers the best available to the public…while still understanding and focusing on the state of the art, highest accepted proformance levels of PU blanks/polyester resin boards. (While it seems Mr Loehr is only operating on one front and attacking all others)

I guess he got mad cus I said he sounded like Buckwheat at the Cerritos College seminars (No offence, its a free country and his accent reminded me of Buckwheat). "

2

Ha-ha!! He called …Lost surfboards “custom” AND lighter and stronger. Now thats funny!

3

Wow, where can I sign up for one of them radical Biolos’?

4

New bacteria to eat eps

http://www.swaylocks.com/forum/gforum.cgi?post=257640;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

can we come up with a bacteria to dispose of Biolos?

5

styro-eating bacteria? Cool. Sometimes the most amazing, efficient life forms are the least highly evolved.

Just look around sways…

6

I’m not sure why this topic is here. You have taken it upon yourself to edit a fairly long conversation, taking a few things out of context and reproducing it here. Both Matt and Greg are posting at Surfer Mag on this topic. If anyone has a “take” they would be better served discussing it on the Surfer Mag BB than here.

7

Ahh, the beauty of our egotistical little sport…everyone is an expert. And opinions like assholes, everyones got one, right. Hey I got one too, see!

quote from Little Jackie Cooper, 1936 Our Gang episode #23,."Our little industry is changing, maybe Matt is sort of right. Technology that was cutting edge 3 months ago, is now slightly out dated. I would expect that, hell I’m hoping for that! Where’s my space age foam that weights .2324 oz per metric ton. Strong as titanium, shapes with palm sander, and doesn’t need to be laminated. But without seeing all this new technology that is supposedly right around the corner, We still only have a few options. I would be suprised to hear of Ol Buckwheat coming out with different “new tech” products. Right now Greg is the best option for new technology.

Bring on the new stuff, let’s see it!

O’tay

8

i agree this dosn’t belong here—matt B is not our kind of people (boy, that sounds harsh) but his rudness, misspellings of greg’s name , along with many others is just so typical of his verbage in many media just cry for response…sorry matt, your boards are throwaways used as ’ loss-leaders’ for your clothing line and you whole atti-dude is a poor joke for the public personia of a businessman. and since you started it on Surfer.com with the question—“how long should boards last?”----my answer–they already last forever since they don’t decompose—lets make them usable and functional forever.

9

I read that whole thread on surfermag…I followed it for days…and kept my mouth shut. Until the end, when I coudnt take it anymore, and I flipped out.

I called out Matt on everything from the misspellings of Greg’s name, to his lack of knowledge on the topics he was discussing, to his poor internet manners(all caps typing…not a big deal I know, but I was pissed)

I also challenged him to a surfboard building duel…

Normally I am not one to start arguments or spread negative vibes, but I have alot of respect for Greg and wasn’t about to let Matt be so disrespectful.

Being able to call Greg or Sammy for advice or help when I was starting out meant alot to me. Both of them are knowledgable, and share the stoke on surfing and their product. Plus, I am a firm believer in RR epoxy…

If you want to see my post I am at the bottom of page 4, my name on there is sbvfive as well. Sorry ahead of time for the bad vibes, I promise I will leave them at surfermag and keep swaylocks postive…

Scott

10

this is very wrong…the posting on surfermag is much clearer…

matt has many good points from a surfboard company point of view. i agree with him on how hard it is to change over production to new materials or ways. many of his points ar valid for manufacturers. you know why berts boards arent readily available yet… its because they still havent been able to put them in to production of any volume. even with the million plus invested in thier company. and you home builders can make them because you have time… the resourses are cheap for compsands… but the time is what professionals have to charge for. then the every day people dont want to pay what they are worth. then you pick on matts quality… he has made what his customer base demanded. greg even agrees with matt on how small our surfboard industry is in the big picture. i have been wanting to mke better quality boards for 11 years since i contacted bert after seeing one he did then. you know that in that time there still is not a vast improovement in any supplies i can get in australia. i looked up old emails and found that ive been trying to get gregs resin here for 3 years to try it to see if thats my answer… still have even sniffed it…as i continually struggle to pay pu supply bills there is no viable option yet to change over my production. matt has publicly tried many better mousetraps… avisio, solomon etc etc… but none of them have been taken up by the buying public who pay our bills…

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Quote:

this is very wrong…the posting on surfermag is much clearer…

matt has many good points from a surfboard company point of view. i agree with him on how hard it is to change over production to new materials or ways. many of his points ar valid for manufacturers. you know why berts boards arent readily available yet… its because they still havent been able to put them in to production of any volume. even with the million plus invested in thier company. and you home builders can make them because you have time… the resourses are cheap for compsands… but the time is what professionals have to charge for. then the every day people dont want to pay what they are worth. then you pick on matts quality… he has made what his customer base demanded. greg even agrees with matt on how small our surfboard industry is in the big picture. i have been wanting to mke better quality boards for 11 years since i contacted bert after seeing one he did then. you know that in that time there still is not a vast improovement in any supplies i can get in australia. i looked up old emails and found that ive been trying to get gregs resin here for 3 years to try it to see if thats my answer… still have even sniffed it…as i continually struggle to pay pu supply bills there is no viable option yet to change over my production. matt has publicly tried many better mousetraps… avisio, solomon etc etc… but none of them have been taken up by the buying public who pay our bills…

RR should be in Australia in about 3 weeks so things are changing. The switchover to RR epoxy isnt that bad and many here are running Poly/epoxy in parallel so things are coming along.

12

The way I look at it, when people are trying to take a bite out of your ass, the direction they are coming from is clearly the back of the pack. I have worked with epoxy for a lot of years in applications other than surfboards. My dad owned and operated a polymer chemical plant. I worked there. Lohr has done a lot of good and shared his knowledge and work openly. In the age of the “Blog” useless spew is just a speed bump on the information super highway. Its a big game of “King of the Hill” aint no body pushing down the guy already in a ditch.

13
Quote:

So the way I see it, …Lost has brought to market many many different ways to make boards that are stronger and lighter, and has looked at all options, and offers the best available to the public…while still understanding and focusing on the state of the art, highest accepted proformance levels of PU blanks/polyester resin boards. (While it seems Mr Loehr is only operating on one front and attacking all others)

I guess he got mad cus I said he sounded like Buckwheat at the Cerritos College seminars (No offence, its a free country and his accent reminded me of Buckwheat). "

I am responding to this as if Matt wrote it…if he did not, then my point will still stand.

Who is this Matt of Lost and mayhem. A cheesey self promoter who couldn’t shape and had machines and crafty adverstisments make his company. Appears to be a good business man or lucky one. The guy makes some of the cheapest surfboards on the planet with a so called name brand. His comment about always using the most cutting edge materials and best quality has to be the joke of the ages. His clothing company and his surfboard company in my opinion represent all that had done WRONG in surfing, board building and image. It’s all about selling a druged out loser look to kids who have no identity of their own and a lightly glassed surfboard that fits the attitude of the kids wearing the clothing and riding the boards. As for all of his help and caring attitude towards our past design masters and surfing in general is simply another way for this guy to pin the label of surfing’s mesiah on his own chest.

Something else: Greg at his age can probably rip Matt B. a new one in the water. Anyone ever see him surf? Eye opener…the guy rips. Buckwheat? What kind of silly cheap shot is this Matt. I know many many great Californians, but this arrogant west coast is superior with racist undertones is pretty petty coming from a self proclaimed mesiah.

The best I can tell, Greg has not tried to sell his personal foam or epoxy to anyone by his post or his writing. He has always seemed to me to simply want the surfing public to stand up and take a look at NEW tech. and he has his opinions about some of the old stuff. Don’t we all? Matt B. is way behind Greg L. in trying to find new and improved surfboard materials…old Matt simply does not like it that someone other than himself is considered and authority on the subject. Also…Got a newsflash…scientist being interested in this means abosolutely nothing. A bunch of eggheads that don’t surf and have not put in practical application as Greg and others have, are going to start at square one without the aid of a shaper and craftsman… I suspect Greg is as happy as anyone that others are taking an interest.

The great thing about the surf industry is also one of the frustrating things about it…nothing stays the in thing very long and it rarely matters whether it’s a proven and great design or not. Thrusters have probably lasted longer than any other design or than single fins (since singles are still used quite a bit on longboards and even on shorties).

Matt B. reminds of me of the kid in school who always wanted to be class president and captain of the student counsel or something, but still wanted the reputation of bad boy. Couldn’t have it both ways back then and still can’t.

14

I agree with the solo surfer. the guy did make some decent points before backstabbing greg then it went down hill from there. kind of reminds me of the locals where i grew up you could never live close enough to the beach you were always a towner or you dont surf the right board thats not shaped by the local shaper. used to catch a lot of crap for surfin a bonzer 3 when everybody else had twins. funny when they were sliding out on 7ft plus days that bonzer never slipped once ever . and unfortunately expeirences such as these has given me the bad attitude that I have never met surfer except for close friends that i would trust.there was always the feeling is my car going to get hit tires slashed racks ripped off ect… this guy reminds me of these same backstabbing worthless turds who get out of the water jack with your stuff and leave before you can do any thing about it. unfortunatly this is also a part of the surfing culture that is taught to the groms.but enough of that kudos to bert god blessem loved the response. as far as lost never bought any of there stuff and prefer they just stay lost.

15

this is one of the last posts on this subject by someone named squire remembering that matt started this discussion by asking how long should a board last…

I would like to reply to MAyhems original post / question:

A performance product can last as long or as short as the user wants. The key is not so much the product, but the user and environment it is used in.

Given that we are talking about PRO athletes (consider that most surfers are not pros, and not even close in performance).

  1. A pro bike road racer (at the elite level of say Armstrong) will have his bike / bikes serviced after every day of racing. depending on the day, there may be new tires, handlebar tape, and a chain installed. Regerdless, the entire bike would be taken apart, cleaned thouroughly and put back together by pro mechanics. If you could buy this exact product, it would cost in the neighborhood of 5K. Armstrong has around 10 at his disposal.

  2. a mountain bike racer will do likewise, but will more commonly ride parts to failure. There are far more moving parts and demanding environment on an MTB. A race ready downhill rig will run you around 6K. Expect to spend about 2k more keeping it ready to race for a full season.

  3. a pro hockey player has an entire bag of high performance sticks. A stick could last 3 games, it could last 30 seconds. Hockey sticks are similar to surfboards. They are made from a composite of resin and cloth, they twist, flex, and rebound. A pro issue stick can cost 300 bucks to make. Figure on 100 per season, or more.

  4. Race cars and such are somewhat too regulated to compare to surfboards. They generally are limited to a certain horsepower, weight, and computer operated systems that can and cannot be used. However, the rule of thumb with most motorsports is the vehicle must make it to the finish line to win. That’s it.

One thing to keep in mind. If pro surfers treated equipment they way a pro bike racer did then the following would occur after every event: Clean all the wax and loose traction pads completely off the deck. Remove fins and leash. Remove any sponsor decals that could be hiding stress deformities. inspect the board thoroughly for any stresses or issues. Repare or relace any problem parts. Check fin alignment, cant, etc… to make sure no damage has occured to boxes. Weigh board using consistent method to make sure water has not been absorbed through hidden damage. Package boards for next event properly. Log all of the above information on your cmputer for future reference. Provide logs to manufacturer at the end of each month, for each board for review. Send any unusual symptoms or damaged product to board builder for investigation.

Of course in another sport, you would have a “tech” that would do all of this for you in most cases. If surfing does not crash and burn (cyclical sport you know) there will be a SurfTech trailer (a big one) at every pro event. team riders will have a special secure board storage and tuning area. So Slater walks in, checks with his tech, and says “give me the 5’10”, round pin with 228A fins. Tune it for medium flex and 66 degree water. Have a back up with medium light flex, and 229B fins. Apply HRS wax." The tech would say “yessir, I am also tuning a 6’0” with the same setup. I am tracking a 1 foot increase in swell, 20 degree wind direction shift to the east in 62 minutes." Slater would say “bet”.

The whole Surftech team trailer would move from event to event doing this, and all of the above. All the boards would travel in the trailer, safe and sound, and fully prepared for action.

Instead, they drag bags through airports, travel with a posse of professional thugs, draw sponsor logos on with magic markers, and give boards away after a temper tantrum that leaves a fisthole in the deck. We are talking about an industry with millions of participants, billions of dollars in revenue, and top competitors that date supermodels and famous actresses. When the “industry”

(Quikbonghurleycom)gets behind the actual proffesional sport, not the selling of the sport, then you may see more of this kind of thing. Good or bad, I don’t know.

But the reality is this: a real pro surfer cannot be compared to the guy buying a board off the rack. There might be 200 real pro surfers in the world. Those people need equipment that is built for a single purpose, to win or perform without compromise. It may have a short lifespan. If you want to buy that same board go ahead, it will not make you a pro surfer. You can almost buy armstrongs bike, or charmichaels motorcycle, you ain’t gonna be them either. When you throw a chain, or need your spokes tensioned, their mechanic won’t be there. So buy whatever you want. Don’t complain about your own choice.

Final rule of performance equipment:

Light. Strong. Cheap. Pick any 2.

16

i fully agree with daves earlier post about availability of materials and access to better ways …

also matt was in the unfortunate posistion of having private words aired in public , so you have to keep that in context …

biolas made valid points , he has no choice but to quickly look at alternatives and a system is not in place yet to deal with the commercial scale needed by the industry …

lately , dealing with logistics and the shear scale of what is needed just blows me away , clark left a massive hole , but its not just a matter of picking up where he left off , a whole new infrastructure needs to be established …

i dont think its fair to bag the guy to heavily , the guy can swing a planer, hes done his time in this business and hes made a mark …

hes made a sucess of a certain angle in the market …

love him , hate him , my opinion is ,hes a clever guy , maybe not how i would sell myself , but im not him …

i hear this thing called luck get thrown around loosely …

bottom line is , if youve spent 20 years in a business and youve become successful , chances are youve worked your ass off …

when i get a chance , i will get back to that thread at surfer …

regards

BERT

17
Quote:

i fully agree with daves earlier post about availability of materials and access to better ways …

also matt was in the unfortunate posistion of having private words aired in public , so you have to keep that in context …

biolas made valid points , he has no choice but to quickly look at alternatives and a system is not in place yet to deal with the commercial scale needed by the industry …

lately , dealing with logistics and the shear scale of what is needed just blows me away , clark left a massive hole , but its not just a matter of picking up where he left off , a whole new infrastructure needs to be established …

i dont think its fair to bag the guy to heavily , the guy can swing a planer, hes done his time in this business and hes made a mark …

hes made a sucess of a certain angle in the market …

love him , hate him , my opinion is ,hes a clever guy , maybe not how i would sell myself , but im not him …

i hear this thing called luck get thrown around loosely …

bottom line is , if youve spent 20 years in a business and youve become successful , chances are youve worked your ass off …

when i get a chance , i will get back to that thread at surfer …

regards

BERT

I gave him credit for being smart and said he was either smart or lucky. Luck can happen by being in the right place at the right time. Espcecially when your begging everyone to be their mesiah. I have zero respect for Matt. B. I give him credit for being a good promoter, but his buckwheat response and scathing line of horsecrap to Greg show his true colors. will surfers stand up and take notice of this promoter whose has hijacked their sport and turned it into the clown show…nope. They never do. He would not get away with gutless remarks like the buckwheat thing in person and would NOT say it in person. As for private E mail. He admitted he told his friend to post it, so he must have wanted it public. Now it is for all to see his lack of Class. I don’t care if he is the only surfboard maker on the planet…I will never own anything from his factory. Some of his claims about his own business are truly a joke, especially the part about quality and looking out for the shaper.

This is not the first self promoting and bashing of others post he has written and then tried to pass it off as helping surfing. I have no problem with being critical…it’s called for sometimes, but the way he handled Greg with his arrogant California is all that is in surfing…sucks. I got news for California shapers, many of which I respect and whose shapes I love; You are behind the East Coast by a few years in epoxy, because you never embraced it, just like many of you did not embrace Sun cure resine. Your boards turn yellow and show styrofoam because you don’t know what your doing at this time and are learning the hard way what many on the east coast have already found out. I don’t think Epoxy IS the answer to everything, but it does have it’s plus and it is really nice in some types of surfboards, but I have seen no yellow or styofoam bubbles in any of the boards I have owned or sold from my site or shop. Many of the greats in California never messed with epoxy and prefered to deal with poly and make properly glassed surfboards that last and forsake the mass produced junk sold in most surf shops today. The others like Lost simply promote a look, an attitude ( a negative one at that) and videos with their team guys in them. Fortunately for them, surfing is now mostly under 25 year old and over 30 fifteen year olds that believe anything they read in a mag and act like saving $100 is a big deal in the large scale. Fact is and I have said it before…if $100.00 is going to break you and keep you from buying a properly shaped and glassed surfboard, you don’t need to be surfing. Don’t think your getting it with a surftech either…they ding like anything else.

18

…well, this guy M Biolos, talk without search nothing…MDI PU foam is worst than TDI in almost every aspect for surfboards…

…so, may be his talk about RR resin is just only that , words…

—I agree with solo surfer…

19

I have always lived by the credo ‘the harder you work, the luckier you get.’

I dunno solo, there are some pretty impressive things happening in epoxy in N Cali too.

Could anyone post a link to this Biolos-Lohr diatribe? I started to look for it but could not find it among the sea of non-surfing posts full of “brah” “dude” etc.

20
Quote:

I have always lived by the credo ‘the harder you work, the luckier you get.’

I dunno solo, there are some pretty impressive things happening in epoxy in N Cali too.

Yes, we do usually make our own luck…I already said Matt B. was a good businessman/promoter. I just don’t think that means much to me when I think about surfing or anything worthwhile in the world. I respect business people who do well and add something. I simply don’t think Lost, Mayhem or Matt B. add anything worthwhile to the world of surfing. Not for me anyway. Just another promoter with an ego and an attitude.

I have seen some things from Northern California. I am not saying Californians can’t get it or that some have not gotten it, but the vast majority from what I can tell by the boards I have seen are way behind the East coast who adopted epoxy to different degrees years ago. I am still waiting to see the scientist save our industry…we have heard that one before haven’t we?