Maximum surfboard not SUP width relative to planing speed?

General Discussion
1

Have been digging around in the archives for a while and there is not much info on this subject.

Consenus seems to be around 24 inches, but that big powerfull surfers with big feet can go much wider until you can’t paddle the board effciently.

My question is this at what width do you start to see the actual width of the board start to slow it down? 

I still have not to this day seen a fast SUP in small weak waves. Maybe this is due to the amount of rocker, but at some point the drag created by such a large wetted area start to slow the thing down?

 Longer narrower boards with minnum rocker IMHO tend to look faster then SUP’s in weak waves.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWvju3kj-eu/?hl=fi&taken-by=cheynehoran

 

 

 

2

21 - 23" wide is a good practical max. width for an easy paddler, I have a 24" wide board on loan from a friend, with down rails all the way, and the width itself doesn’t slow the board down, its plenty fast. But a little uncomfortable for my bad hip to straddle.

3

   Most of my personal big wave guns, were in the 21 to 21 1/2 inch range.    Jim Fisher,an early 50’s big wave pioneer, liked his guns 22 inches wide.      My long time surfing buddy Dr. Marshall White, rode his 10’ 6’’ x 23’’ wide gun that I made him, on that epic Dec. 1969 day at Makaha that Greg Noll brags about.     I have a photo of Marshall in the middle of a 30 foot near glassy wall, with a pencil line wake behind him.       He said he had no trouble making those waves.      The board was fast, in the extreme.    Lindsey Lord addresses the relationship of width to length, and its effect on speed and planing.      Width is more of a friend, than an enemy, as it relates to board speed on a wave.

4

Thanks for the story and feedback!

I’m currently surfing a 25 inch wide board that I can paddle fine, but my hip does not like 3h+ sessions on it.

I remember lindsey lords 1/3 width/lenght ratio but SUP’s still look slow to me…

 

 

5

Here in Germany is a wording from canoe and ship builder that says: “Länge läuft”, which can be translated into “lenghts runs (fast)”. I think this can be transfered to all water vehicles, even for surfboards and SUP’s. But it does not have any ratio of width to length. Finally it means only, that at a given width, the longer, the faster. But mathematically you can revert this also into at given length, the narrower the faster. But this is for the vessel only, maybe not suitable for a 5kg surfboard, which is loaded with a 160lbs surfer…

If I build my boards, I like to have them wide enough, which makes riding easier, but not too wide, because it hinders may paddling. I orientate myself at similar boards from more experienced shapers like me. In detail I like to follow the guidelines of real experienced guys, like Mr. Thrailkill. I have build not more than 10 boards and I’m a quite poor surfer too…

6

Curve shape from tip of nose to wide point affects “plowing.”  Width to length ratio affects the curve’s shape in the front section, and therefore, the plowing effect.

I have no idea at what point this plowing effect becomes noticable/significant.  However, as others have already said, physical discomfort paddling/straddling may be the deciding factor.

Trial & error:  front-section curve shape plus width/length ratio…

7

On the flip side, what’s the skinniest you can go?

8

The older I get the wider I like. 23” for me, and next board may be wider.

9

I think the other guys have indicated that there’s a Practical variation that works for all surfboards, much like rocker, vee, concave et al. You can try wide variations but there’s a Range that generally works taking in variables like the wave power and the riders weight.

 Smaller waves would benefit from width for early planing, bigger waves less width to keep the board from leaping.

 To answer your original  question , I don’t think there’s a max width that slows a board but it would affect riding control once you ride meatier waves.

10

While I realize that Sami specified “Not SUPs” in title, I think it is still valid to reference some extremes that appear to be functioning quite well in ‘normal’ waves.  By that, I mean not necessarily huge waves requiring gun dimensions.  Even with that clarification, there is plenty of evidence to support the concept of wide widths on SUPs in big waves.

I am also aware of a number of bodyboards being shaped in the 6 foot range with widths just under 30".  Also consider that ‘Hawaiian Paipo Designs’ has been building spooned paipos 48" long and less with wide points at around 30" for a long time.  I don’t think anybody would discount the speed these are capable of achieving in the hands of a skilled rider.

Sorry if I’m straying too far off track but I don’t see the point in discussing ‘theory’ when the evidence is right in front of us regarding width and it’s application in the surf zone…

11

That’s interesting about bodyboard design, I wasn’t aware of that.  We know SUPs can be wide, and fast.

I don’t see width as an isolated factor determining speed.  I tried to steer the o.p. toward a “practical” max width for a surfboard.  Practical, by definition, means pragmantic, sensible, realistic, ergonomic, concerned with actual experience, ie., empirical as opposed to theoretical.

SUPs and bodyboards have different guiding design factors, as a general rule you don’t lay on them and paddle with your arms into the wave, and you don’t sit and straddle them in the lineup between waves.  So the practical maximum width for a surfboard seems to end up somewhere between 21 and 23 (or 24) inches, depending on a variety of circumstances, like where you surf, how much stability you desire, how wide a board you are comfortable paddling and sitting on, as well as the rest of the design criteria for the board in question.  Skimboards don’t require paddling or sitting, they can be very fast in mushy waves and in juicy waves, and they seem to max out around 21 or 22 inches. 

The width itself isn’t necessarily going to slow you down, but excessive width can impact things like maneuverability and comfort.

In my opinion. 

Your mileage may vary.

12

There are all kinds of work arounds.  Mickey Munoz and Bruce Jones (to name a couple) often maintained widths well in excess of 24" to keep some sort of curve in the outline on their longer longboards.  Bruce Jones (RIP) no longer has an active website so I can’t link to his boards.  

In comparison, Skip Frye and assorted Frye protoges seem to have determined that 22 1/2" (or whatever limit) is as wide as they should go regardless of length.  

Plenty of longboarders carry boards on top of their head and just lay down on them in the lineup… alternative ways to get around the ‘under arm’ carry thing or the ‘hip issue’ thing already described here.  I’m able to prone paddle a SUP without too much difficulty seemingly regardless of width.  

In the photo below of a ‘Fish Simmons’ design, one can’t help but notice how parallel it is in outline.  I’m sure it works to a point but I’m sure it has plenty of limitations as well. Compare to the Mickey Munoz design which proportionally expands to as much as 26.25" at maximum 12’ length.

My only point is that at surfboard speeds there likely are not many barriers that will affect speed in the way of width limits…  certainly not the more or less ‘standardized’ width limits being discussed here.  

 

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13

Only very heavy male surfers can ride wide boards on big waves

Tiffany at a buck10 wt maybe… on a 28"- 30" wide boards

 






14

After my last back surgery, as a way to rehab, I borrowed a 9’0” 24” wide Walden Mega Magic surfboard to paddle outside the lineup between lifeguard towers as a way to keep in surfing shape. After some time and I was feeling better,  I started paddling into a few waves. Board was surprisingly fast, and much looser than my traditional longboard. Surfed that board for a while until my rehab was complete. I had no problem paddling it (fastest, easiest board I’ve ever paddled caught everything), so in my opinion wider was better. Rode it well, and people asked why I quit surfing it, but pride and ego just wouldn’t accept me riding the Chinese pop out board. 

15

Good points being made here, hope the o.p. is benefitting from the discussion.  Adding width to keep curve in the outline is a good example of width being a factor of other design considerations, i.e., the width wasn’t added to speed the board up or slow it down, it was  added to keep curve in a longboard template.

Slavishly sticking to a pre-determined width to the point of ending up with parallel rails is not something I would recommend, and I personally don’t like the look of parallel (straight) rails on a longboard.

I don’t think carrying a wide board is an issue - there are board handles that will allow even an SUP to be carried under the arm.  The hip issue is a personal one for me - used as an example of a practical consideration that would influence board design, including width.  That, and the fact that I like to sit up on my board between waves.  My boards are not wider than 23", but they are wider than most in the lineup.  An example is the board in my (current) avatar, 7’ 2" long by 23" wide.

I have to agree that at surfboard speeds there likely are not many barriers that will affect width in the way of speed considerations, which is why I say that the more or less ‘standardized’ width limits being discussed here are practical considerations more than constraints on board speed.

Not yet specifically mentioned is the way the board is surfed, i.e., being “pumped” vs. being trimmed.  

The SUP pics show, as most of us know, that a good surfer can ride a wide board in quality waves and keep up just fine, turn and maneuver well too.  So the optimal width becomes an issue of personal preference, rather than a result of drag constraints resulting from width.

The board on the left is a borrowed board that is 8’ 9" long by 23 1/2" wide, with hard down rails.  The board on the right is my board, at 9’ long by 23" wide, with softer rails, except in the tail area.  The board on the left feels decidedly faster to me, but I like the ride and the sitting comfort of the board on the right.

I think that I have seen “big boy” shortboards well in excess of 23" width, but the width was probably a consideration of rail curve, volume, and stability, not speed.  The only way to really know which width is ideal for a given board ridden by a given surfer in given conditions, is to try some variables and see what works best.  But I suspect that ergonomics will be a stronger factor than speed.

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16

In my opinion , width adds stability on take off , and take off is the most critical moment for many older surfers , it can mean the difference between making the wave or not , it also adds stability paddling and evan just sitting on a board ( unless you have a dodgy hip ) , that extra inch or so also gives you the opportunity to work in a little extra volume , again in my opinion adding extra width / volume allows you to shorten the board and that allows the board to be more maneuverable i e quicker to change direction and generally to make the board , with the right fin combination , act more like a short board . I like to make boards for guys that don’t want ride a traditional long board but cant ride a typical short board .

17

So then from a speed only point of view: 

as wide as the hips will go for quickly getting planing (25-26") 

and

-a deep channel right down the middle which comes into play for higher speeds. Or a concave/whatever. Just not a flat bottom. 

+narrow tail to help footwork

And this applies to mid length and mini simmons too…?

I like to mentally reduce things down to the fastest possible board first and then think from that point for simplicity’s sake. The width thing is a simple question but in reality when shapers change width they usually change something else such as outline and the rail.

18

Aloha Huck, and Mr. Mellor,

Both of you present excellent, rational perspective, on the question of board width.      I personally have not made, or owned a surfboard wider than 23 inches.       It’s a sole consideration  of ease of under arm carry.     And I’ve got long arms.      As I’ve aged, I’ve settled on a personal width preferance of 22 inches.     A mixture of ease of carry, and ability to produce the desired rail curve, of a desired board design.     In the mid/late 60’s, most ‘‘name’’ Gun builders were touting sub 20 inch designs.      I was putting folks on 23 inch wide full blown big wave Guns.     Conventional ‘‘wisdom’’ said that boards that wide would spinout, and could not handle big waves.     That was wrong, demonstrated by Doc White riding 30 foot point surf, at Makaha, in December 1969.     

19

Hello Gbzausa, good points made.  I have to agree, especially with my hip issues, that width adds stability that helps me get up, and yes, its a much bigger issue at 62 than it ever was when I was younger.

Your 23 1/2" wide board is a great performer, and shows that thinking outside the box can produce a really effective design for bigger / older guys.  By keep the rails down and pretty hard, you produced a board that is noticeably fast right out the gate.

Big Jimbo Pellegrine rode a 7’ 0" by 24" by 4" shortboard in Bali, and it seemed to work great for him.  I think I have seen those “big boy” shortboards as wide as 25", and in the SUP world there are shortboard type shapes wider yet.

But while 23" - 24" seem to be a practical max on surfboard width, for the most part, I don’t think there are any real hard and fast maximums in surfboard design.

20

Huck you are absolutely right , there are no rules , make any adjustments and changes necessary  , use what works for the surfer , the conditions , location , etc , there is no one size fits all . In my opinion older guys should not be looking at what a 20 year old North shore charger is riding because if they pay attention they will see that there are out there well know older shortboard surfers who are now in there 50s and their boards have grown as the years have piled on , they are probably still fitter than the average surfer but have faced the fact that they need a little help that volume and length can provide .