Aloha,
Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on copying “Master shapers” designs by pluging numbers into a CAD program?
MW
If you didn’t create it, move to Somalia with the rest of the pirates.
hey woo
gave that some thought this week
nobody gets paid for copies, apart from the person copying, and the shaper [?] selling the boards.
it does give one a good starting point to make his or her own board though.
you mentioned that there is no school for shaping, so copying in that sense makes sense, you want to start somewhere proven
is this question something you struggle with or just a question?
wouter oo…woo
what cad program is that? I’ve never seen one that was that easy to use.
Hey VP,
It was just a question as I saw another thread that people were passing around actual shots of templates of a design you could scale up and asking for rocker numbers. I also saw that you read a bit from a quote I made from an artical. Reguardind that. Yes there are no schools for shaping. Well, none that I know of at least. I guess starting out you need to go off of something. Why not try to hand shape it? Why deny yourself the whole learning process of shaping? Hey, why not take a Merrick or a Tokoro that you bought down to get probed at the local CNC then call it your design? Maybe even stick your logo on it! Ha ha!
My question was the “moral” aspect of it.
Sorry VP my comment was directed to wouter. By the way, I don’t have any “struggles” with this. I love helping starters out that have their hand at shaping! The machine is a great tool! A tool that can be used to reproduce or alter designs that YOU’VE designed. That’s just my “Moral” take on it. Yours seems to be that if you don’t get paid for a shape then it’s fine to copy other shapers work.
The path of shaping is a long and winding one. Don’t deny yourself the learning process. There are no short cuts to gaining knowledge.
MW
[quote="$1"]
Aloha,
Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on copying "Master shapers" designs by pluging numbers into a CAD program?
MW
[/quote]
There are only so many curves that can fit between an 11 1/4 nose, 18 1/2 centre and 14 tail.
so I dont feel that punching numbers into a cad program is ripping off the original shapers design.
Scanning the master board maybe.
I had a board in at work last week from another shaper and thought it looked very similar to a design that I had been working on with one of my team guys for the last couple of years only one inch shorter.Threw a tape over it and a square and the numbers were exactly the same. Put my template on it and it matched perfectly even down to rocker measurements.Never seen the board before and I'm sure the other shaper had never seen my board before either.
What I guess I'm trying to say is nobody has the rights to a certain set of curves over a determined length.
Cheers
Daren
I agree with you (and with most of what’s already been said). We all more or less copied existing boards when we started shaping. The difference (and it’s a big one) is that our skill limited how the board would turn out as compared to the original. Machines are just another story. There is a huge difference between measuring some points on a board then making a template using these figures and trying to make it look like the original as much as possible (but with a fair margin of error due to beginner’s ability), then trying to shape it (with this same margin of error, only worse) and we won’t even talk about glassing for the first time… and scanning a board and having a machine cut it out then some fine-sanding and off it goes to a pro glasser…
Also, nothing against machines and people using them but, as far as I’m concerned, I didn’t spend forty years learning what could be done with a power planer and hand-tools to let a machine do it. I’m still learning everyday and that keeps me going. To each his own, and I do understand that machines divide the shaping time by 3 or 4, thus adding margin, but I love to “fight” with raw material. Fine-tuning is just the final part of the shaping process.
It was the “moral” issue of it I was talking about. No right or wrong answer. I was just wondering how people felt about it. I agree nobody has the rights to the curves over a determined length. If you feel good about what you do then great!
MW
** Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on copying “Master shapers” designs by pluging numbers into a CAD program? **
That is so funny! People download a free cad program then plug in the numbers of a off the rack well know brand. Hilarious!
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The program will not make the same board. There is so much more information a true cad program needs to make a perfect copy. It takes more brain power than you can ever image to make a really good board with the computer. Just about every file I received from a guy from a free down load is a mess. It’s sad that people are so native concerning the use of Cad and CNC?
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Once the board is cut the quality of the cuts is crucial. The way the board is finished? You can take a perfectly cut file and destroy the design if you are a HACK! Then you have the master board builder who cuts all his models on a CNC and the cuts made be horrible and because he is such a good shaper he cleans them up and their perfect. You would be surprised at how many shaper’s hack through CAD and CNC and end up with a great product. Now if you have a perfect cut and a good finish shaper you save so much time and your off and running.
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Scanning is the only way to truly copy a model. Morally it is wrong to scan another shapers design unless you have permission and work out royalty agreements. If you have truly shaped and designed a good working model that you get a lot of sells for then you are foolish not to optimize your production by scanning said model and owning the file to cut at a cutting house in your proximity.
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CAD and CNC take skill and brain power. To dis it is ignorance! Like anything in life you should use it with moral integrity! Same for the internet? Do you use it for research and knowledge or for immoral purposes?
Surfding
Balsa and Surfding lend immeasurable insight to your question. SD directly answers your question in his #3 and #4. Balsa echoes my sentiment about enjoying a skill that we both have developed over 4 decades. Balsa is a respected shaper in France with a long history of surfboard design development.
The outline that everyone is hot all over is on the Lost Rocket thread. Durbs posted a pic of a board I did for Randy Rostoker on that thread as well (Stoker V Machine). The fuller planshapes are currently the darling of the hour so to speak as more and more surfers discover that riding minimal volume high performance surfboards have set back their surfing by years. Great if you’re a pro in good waves, bummer if you’re a real person in every day conditions.
As far as plugging in CAD, don’t forget that the “A” in CAD is “assisted” and helps someone actualize a design. Surfding is spot on with the many other elements that go into great surfboards. As far as the coment about “there are only so many curves you can create within” certain dims on per said board…give me a break WE ARE TALKING ABOUT COMPOUND CURVES HERE.
I could spend a month designing within the dims stated and use different combinations of compound curves and have very different riding surfboards for all of them. I agree with Daren (Entity) that no one owns a particular planshape…even very different ones like the Meyerhoffer abortion that works.
So yeah, morally CAD yourself to death, as far as scanning someone else’s original, SD answered that for you.
As far as “there are no shaping school’s”…there ARE shaping schools. Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo has a shaping school. The class is currently full. There are others. Do a search, look around if you are serious about it. Request one in your area at a local school.
Not having school’s didn’t stop any of us that have shaped thousands of surfboards over the past 40 years. Don’t worry, we will die soon and you and the computer gurus can have it all…
P.S.
By the time I am dead, I hope to have all my best work on file so they can be faithfully reproduced thereby competing with all the new shapers that discounted all the time and effort we have put into supplying customers with great surfing equipment. Only then will they get a taste of the bullshit we are now being fed by self proclaimed digital genuises sitting at home with their computers.
Little design variability between popular surfboard designs in the market makes it somewhat morally neutral.
A shaper/designer on one side of the world could be CNC shaping a design while another designer/shaper on the other side of the planet could be making a nearly identical CNC design without each of them knowing it. Same result. Who owns it? Who cares.
Scanning a popular design that sells well in order to make an easy buck is morally wrong, but not against the law if no IP was filed.
Scanning a popular design for your own personal use (not for profit) is morally borderline. Maybe that guy cannot afford to pay $650 for a name brand board that surfs great the first few sessions but quickly wears out.
A truly UNIQUE NEW product that is sold for profit, should not be copied by others for profit. But this notion has never stopped people from doing it. In fact it is usually the norm.
Generally speaking, if copying designs is morally wrong, then there are probably thousands of morally corrupt people in the world. But what's new about that? Not much.
There is an ocean of difference between what is morally right, and the disturbing realities of the world we live in.
Many/most people who are fiercely driven by money/profit are more often than not, morally corrupt to varying degrees.
Copying surfboard designs is probably the least of this world's problems. Surfboards are just toys.
You’ve pretty much hit the nail on the head. It is an immoral world we live in. Bernie Madoff’s ponzie scheme, industrial espionage, patent infringement, overnight surfboard copies…you name it. Who cares? Moral people that will drive themselves crazy in an immoral world.
I guess it comes down to what kind of person you are and where you draw the line. Are you a nice person out in the street but kick your dog or beat your kids behind closed doors? Only you know that.
Copy what you want, scan someone else’s and call it your own, cut the guy off on the on ramp, drop in on anybody and everybody. Then if some guy paddles up with a smile after the paddle back from your last ride and just clocks you off your board with an unexpected right hook, chalk it up to experience.
HAVE A NICE DAY!
By the time I am dead, I hope to have all my best work on file so they
can be faithfully reproduced thereby competing with all the new shapers
that discounted all the time and effort we have put into supplying
customers with great surfing equipment. Only then will they get a
taste of the bullshit we are now being fed by self proclaimed digital
genuises sitting at home with their computers.
I love your closing quote and could not agree more.
Dick Brewer who I greatly respect is in his 70’s and shapes even better now than ever? This type of craftsman the computer can never be. It can only record and register his work not create it!
When these legends go to be with our maker the digital geniuses will not have anyone to copy. I do not know any digital geniuses that have made it in the surf industry. The true geniuses do not make surf boards. They make racing parts, petroleum exploration tools and aviation items and make $500 to $1,000 per hour. There will always need to be a core element to surfing to make it real. There is a young shaper who just turned 20 and has been shaping for about a year. Uses a skil 100. His shapes are better than guys that have been shaping for decades? I think there is a natural factor as well. You are either born with it or your not. Hopefully there will still be some true craftsman left before this planet we can Tera Firma is destroyed!
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You can meaure and get deadly close as well. Close enough that when she goes through the cycle of variance its really just as good. Even the mighty eye and hand has variables after she runs through the construction cycle. Machines have variables… Machine and programs even more. Hand and Digi it does not matter as theft it simply is. How to remedy…? this has happened forever whether it be a template, a program, HD, design file or girlfriend?
Not that it matters much but if we want to witch hunt the ripp off copy cats heres an idear:
Everybody throw any template you pulled from another shapers board into a giant pile and burn them. then we claim our dims and cut outlines with a butter knife to see who makes the best curves…The best result receives 12 month’s free patent protection to see if the design break through can actually make someone any money before the next guy makes a 15% variance or the big fish lurking with all its marketing $ comes in and claims it as its own…
No true resolution or answer to this question as it always boils down to the perception and personal truth of the individual. You cannot expect other people to live by the same rules as you do. Some may preach "Do unto others as you would have done to you" but that doesn't work if the person doing unto others is a masochist in the hopes that you will return the favor. In the real world all you have is your truth and what you hold dear. To expect the same ideals from others is a good recipe to drive yourself insane or into going postal.
Live your truth
Well put CHarvey! =) This topic was one that I’ve been wondering about for years! Great to hear peoples thoughts on this.
I’ve also learned that there ARE shaping shcools out there! =) Wish there was one in Hawaii!
MW
Mix a thorough understanding of how to draw with Beziers, a good knowledge of what makes a good surfboard tick, what those lines in your CAD program will come out like when your preshape comes off the machine, and a good hand shaping ability and you’re part way there…
hey m.woo
i have never used a cad program in my life, i hope to one day make one of surfdings boards on file, and get a decent board out of the s3d machine here in holland, scheveningen. just to concentrate on glassing
as far as copying goes, i have no experience whatsoever with cad programs, so all my answers relate to metal bars, nails and drawing pencils…
my take is that if you do copy, ask the designer for his ok?
wouter
Same here… never used a CAD or CNC. Don’t care to. Takes half the fun out of it for me.
But I will say this… Having bought a great board, you’ve paid your dues. Having that board scanned is not a problem for me as long as you don’t call it your own design and sell it. Keep it, ride it, do it again. It’s like burning music. Buy the CD, then make as many copies as you want. Making the purchase gives you the right, because now… it’s your property.
But I’d never do it…