moulding fcs fins

Hi, here goes first post

I just tried moulding an fcs side fin using plaster of paris and a pane of glass for the flat inside face.  Got the idea to glass patterned cloth into it from a repair guy in indo.  This first attempt buggered up as I had left the resin outside all winter and had thickend.  Is there any way of thinning it out or warming it back up to restore it?

Ill give it another go when the weather warms up cant cant work out how to do the centre fin.  Maybe in two halfs but cant imagine how to get to flat surfaces that would fit togather perfecty.  Any Ideas?

So flip the suckers over, flick the fin out

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011002SWAY.jpg[/IMG]

and give the whole surface a few coats of carwax, leave them out in the sun so it absorbs into the plaster.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011004SWAY.jpg[/IMG]

thickened resin - could be getting old or just very cold - try warming it up - get a vessel larger than your resin pot and partially fill it with hot water, then measure out your resin into your pot and place that into the hot water 'bath' - make sure water doesn't flow over top and contaminate your resin. You will find it thins out as it warms. You need to decrease the amount of catalyst - (trial and error) as it will kick real quick with warm resin (try about half the ususal amount.

You can also thin it futher by adding styrene - you'll be able to order that from homeblown down here in cornwall - tel 01209 314446

hope it helps...

Cheers

Rich

www.thirdshade.com

 

Heres my attempt at molding carbon winglets, just  POP ( Plaster Of Paris) and a flat sheet of 10mm polypropylene does the trick.[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SBS3.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SBS2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SBS1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SB5.jpg[/IMG]

 Several coats of detergent left to dry worked as the mold seperator. Still got the molds and still use the fins.

 If youre doing a double foiled fin you'll need to make a mold for both sides and use "registration" grooves to key the 2 pieces together. Its not easy or hard just exacting. I used to be a dental technician and did that stuff all day, every day.

 Do you want a step by step ?

Cheers Rich, I'll try the water bath method this weekend.  Have to do everything outside as for some reason some people dont like the smell of resin in the house.  Looks like your making some nice sticks down in Leven. 

Cheers surffoils.  Whats the idea behind your winglets? never seen that before.  You stick them to the side of the fins?

Got an idea of how to do the double fioled fin.  How do you do the registration grooves then?

Will post some more pics of the results 

alright nick, Ive done some pics to show what to do but fi theyre not clear I'll buy some POP and do a physical demo next week.

 

1.  So the first thing is to get or make a box that fits the fin, pick something with at least 2 inches around the outside of the fin and at least 2 in deep. POP (plaster of paris) cracks easily, you can get a stronger type of powder called "stone" or even use cement powder to make molds.

 All the pics are side-on.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/1.png[/IMG]

Get your box, even cardboard will do because the box is only used until the POP sets.

 Prep your fin by painting  some thin coats of mold release on your fin, I use straight washing liquid and give it several coats and let it dry. If youre doing FCS fins they go in and come out of the POP OK, but Futures have that complex angles in the base design and you'll need to fill the gaps in with wax or risk  cracking the mold when you pull the fin out.

Overfill the box with POP,sloppier is better than dryer because you will have more time to work with it and it will give a smoother shape.  Give the box a good vibrate to settle the POP and lift bubbles to the surface and pop them. Youre trying to get Zero bubbles on the surface.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/2.png[/IMG]

Once youve got a bubble free surface, push the fin into the POP,  put it on lightly and wiggle it down to smoothly submerge it, but only just slightly below the  leading/trailing edges all around. 

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/3.png[/IMG]

 now flatten out the POP shoulders around the fin and carefully expose the edges of the fin.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/4.png[/IMG]

 The registration grooves are needed to make sure the 2 halves of the mold go together perfectly later on. The grooves are shaped like an elongated pyramid or an upsidedown roof of  a house.  You can do the grooves while the POP sets or later. 

Make 2 of them on either side of the mold 1" X 2" and about 3/4 in deep but no deeper because then the 'male' part that goes into the groove will be too thin and fragile.

 Keep the sides as flat and sharp as you can. If the POP sets before you can make the grooves, you can do the grooves later, it will be harder and take longer but they will be sharp as  you are carving them out of set POP.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/5.png[/IMG]

So this is a little drawing of what the grooves look like from above, the sharper and neater they are, the better the molding process later on.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/6.png[/IMG]

 Now once youve got the fin settled and flattened the shoulders around the fin.

 Let it set, dont frig around with it, plaster sets in 11mins but gains strength over time so let it set. Come back the next day.

 Plaster also shrinks about .6% or similar so if you let it set properly overnight it will shrink away from the fin and be easier to get the fin out later too.

 Once youre happy with the condition of the mold surface, apply several layers of seperator to the whole top surface of the mold, inc the fin, the shoulders and the grooves.

Now build up the sides of the original box by 2 inches.

 And pour another batch of POP to cover the fin, make it at least 2 in thick for strength. flatten the top and leave to set overnight. 

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/7.png[/IMG]

Thats how to make a mold for a double sided fin.

To take the fin out the next day, soak the complete mold in a warm bath of water and gently lever at the join between the 2 halves with a wide blade , dont stab at it like its an oyster.

 The  mold halves will open, prise the fin out of the mold, any additional plaster chips that come away with the fin just means that there will be some extra resin added to the fin. Thats no problem.

 Get the fin out , scrupulously clean the mold and examine for any bubbles or holes, fix any holes by mixing a tiny amount of POP and smearing it in and over any holes and leave to set.

 Then do the seperator routine again over both internal sides of the mold halves.

 Its now ready to mix and pour resin and CSM into the mold and compress the halves together or you can tape the 2 halves together, stand them up with the Tabs in the air and pour the resin in thru the tabs. Youll have to drill a hole down to the Tabs for that.

 Or you can hand layup mat/ foam and resin into the concaves on each half and then join them.

Heres another way to mold fins..

 Im doing a Top Secret fin project with another Swaylocker and we want to make a number of quick copies of a fin so we can modify each one for testing...

First we made a few fins using ply as the backing and resin and microballons for bulk to foil down.

 I left them just slightly bulkier so there a bit of room to reshape.

 Clamp down a piece of sheet plastic/perspex onto a flat surface. The dowel in the centre is a handle.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011013mm.jpg[/IMG]

Grease the plastic board with car wax, make a smooth surface.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011014mm.jpg[/IMG]

And wax up the fins as well, work the wax in with you hands all over the complete fin, some of it gets absorbed into the fins surface.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011015mm.jpg[/IMG]

I went to the chemist and got a roll of plaster made for putting a cast on a limb. Its plaster on a thin material sheet. 

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011016mm.jpg[/IMG]

Fold over 7 or so layers so it will be strong when it sets.

 

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011017mm.jpg[/IMG]

 

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011018mm.jpg[/IMG]

Get them all done so that theres a bit of overhang around the fin.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011019mm.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011020mm.jpg[/IMG]

Here we go..

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 Dunk the plaster into cool clean water, squeeze and place over the fin.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011022mm.jpg[/IMG]

These are all single foiled fins so natch the flat side is down. Work the plaster onto the fin smoothing it over the foil and pushing it into the corners of the tabs.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011023mm.jpg[/IMG]

Plaster take about 5 mins to start setting so youve got a bit of time, if in doubt, just do 1 at a time.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011024mm.jpg[/IMG]

A bit of extra attention to getting the plaster to mold into the corners around the tabs, its very flexible so it easy.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011025mm.jpg[/IMG]

And on bigger fins I put another few layers across the wide area for extra strength.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011027mm.jpg[/IMG]

 Im leaving these to set overnight and then I'll make a few copies tomorrow.

Slightly OT

but I googled PoP, and this was one of the first links:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/schoolgirl-lost-fingers-in-plaster-of-paris-1801591.html

freeking crazy.....

Now youve got all the molds.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb20110052.jpg[/IMG]

Clean out any loose plaster, brush with car wax

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Lay down layers of glass, i use up all the scraps from glassing boards, Ive put in a few layers of Innegra scraps too.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011008.jpg[/IMG]

Lay up all the glass and top it off with a thin layer of resin. You could do all sorts of fancy layups and swirls.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011009.jpg[/IMG]

Position them level so the resin sets flat.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/feb2011010.jpg[/IMG]

 After they set , you pop them out and do a little grinding around the edges but it might take 5 minutes per fin.

 And if you lose a fin you can get the molds out and make a new one in 15 minutes.

 Im working over Sat/Sun so I'll finish this on Mon if anyone is reading.

I also make fins and I would like to try the way you do it... can you give me more details about the number of layers of cloth you r using!  Thanks great work!

Because their made of scraps of glass, the number of layers depends on what oz, but about 20, its a 'cheap and cheerful' technique but you could get smart and vacbag it to get the highest ratio of glass to resin or alternate layers of veneer and glass or lots of possibilities...

I would set a sheet of glass on top of that mold to insure that you get a nice clean flat back side to the fin.

So theyve set overnight, I left a lip of resin around the perimeter of the fin, slip a knife around and under the rim and the whole fin just pops out, easy as.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/a2011004.jpg[/IMG]

 Sure they need  a bit of a clean up but you can make a fin a day with little grinding so its quick and theres not a lot of itchiness.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/a2011005.jpg[/IMG]

As usual the glass goes clear but you can see that the Innegra goes from white to transluscent.

[IMG]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s225/SURFFOILS/SURFFOILS%202011/a2011006.jpg[/IMG]

Any Q's? Or do you want to see another method ?

how rigid are your molds?

are you worried about the plaster..bending or breaking

if you press too hard..as you are making  the fin?

Wow, All this has been really helpfull, thanks a lot.

Just found some time not to put it into practice.  Heres a photo of my latest attempt at moulding the first half of the centre fin.  Im using two corners of some plastic packaging to set the key shape for the two halves of the mould.  Washing up liquid is working great as a release agent and I added a couple of layers of the badage cloth to strengthen the plaster.  Had a few issues with  strength and the moulds breaking  different types of POP going off at different rates but fingers crossed this time...

Nick F, great work , esp the clear plasitc registration thingies....

You can also use kids marbles by pushing them into the bottom half before it sets and then pop them out before you pour the top half.

 Just smooth the surface of the bottom half before you pour the top, but you probably already sussed that out.

Very nice job!!

I've tried to mould fin into a flower pot with plaster of paris, but it was very hard to extract the model. (with some grease it would be better!!)

And another probler was humidity of the plaster. The resin i put indo the female model polymerize with plaster.

 

So thankyou for your post, giving ideas!!

You guys should get yourselves some moulding silicone instead of the plaster of paris.  Then you will have an easy to use mold that you can use over and over.  Below is a link to the procedure.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rapidproto/manufacturing/molds/silicone.html

 You can make a cheaper molding silicone by mixing caulking silicone ( the clear stuff that stinks like vinegar) and plain corn starch powder ( get it from the supermarket)

 This is the next technique I was going to show.

By changing the ratio of mix you can make a rubbery/rigid  mold that can be sanded and cut and you can pigment it with artists oil paint if you like to make something funky thats not a mold. ( like a pastel plinth for an objet d'art or use the silicone/cornstarch material to make kids toys inside a plaster mold)

Any molding material that flexes it likely to distort after time or under pressure during the molding process.