My New Asym From George Gall at PlusOne

General Discussion
21

George, on my way to surf Irene.  Will post bottom pic’s Sunday.  I wasn’t sure how much you wanted to divulge in my original writeup.  Ha.  Like I said, there’s a lot going on down there.  Sorry to sandbag it.

BTW, guys, the center fin foil is not flat one side.

22

…hello +1,

so you say that with this approach, the fins do not act as a cluster and more like an individual fins?

may you explain a bit more about the theory behind that toe in back fin?

 

thanks

23

Great post plus one, gonna have to go back and re-read it.  Nice that someone so on the cutting edge would take the time to share here - it is really appreciated!

Looking forward to bottom pics.

24

Hi Reverb,

Man that's a good question, I still think the fins all do work and the demands on each changes during

a typical ride. 

The fins still do act as a cluster, but what I am finding is that the fins somehow do not seem to fight one

another as much.  Sounds a bit far-fetched but (perhaps) with the thruster set up, there might be a shock

wave or other interaction with the fins placed symmetrically, and more drag is produced.  In general the

thruster fin set up produces more drag than a twin, and a single, and it seems more drag than an

asymmetric 3 fin set-up.  Again, this is just my wild guess.  I am feeling less drag, as all the boards done

so far with the fins like this are quite fast/slippery.

Also, it is not just the placement that is asymmetric but the fin size, area and template as well.  Rationale

was remembering a board that worked well on my backhand (in this case a winged swallowtail, hybrid fish)

and another board that worked well on my forehand (round pin thruster.)   If you look at Greg's picture of

the outline you can see a bit of each board that I mention.  The stringer line is a center guide line but no

longer a relavent center for symmetry, which is the reason the rear fin is offset, "favoring" the round pin

thruster side.

 

Hi Huckleberry,

Don't mention it, I'm pretty much a hack, I know I should be doing calcs like I did back in the day but I

just do stuff "seat of the pants" using other people's knowledge to form the next thing that may/may not

work! ha ha.  I wished Greg could post pics of the bottom shape, I have some of from the earlier

boards but they appear like small thumbnails on here.

I could describe it but I tend to write too much, most people would get glassy-eyed and drowsy about

a third of the way into the "whys" and "hows" of one of my diatribes...

The problem with pics is they can distort what you see and send the wrong message, the photos of

the A_Symm tail make it look very skewed.  In real life the tail tips only differ in length by 2 inches.

I could do screen shots from Shape3D solid models but again the resolution is an issue.  I am

working with the Vilmins to create lengthwise slices (they already can do rail slices) so I can see

the rockers OFF the stringer.  Bottom contour is a secondary factor compared to the multi-rockers

in a board...

 

George

25

George, thanks for taking the time to explain here. I’m excited about Sacred Craft and what you guys are making for the Ekstrom shape off. Have you toed in the side fins differently, since the center line changes? I’m currently making myself an asym and was thinking about this, but too chicken to change the toe in. 

26

Hi GhostShaper,

 

Sacred Craft is so much fun, this year is will be close to the water again, so there will be a demo day

(or morning.)  I think Scott said it is going to be on Sunday this time.  Expect to see a lot of different

stuff to try out (talk about learning in a hurry...) bring a full as it happens early before the show starts. 

It's pretty cool to ask the shapers about their boards right at the beach after you tried one, you know.

 

Not sure exactly what I'm going to shape, I've got two derivatives in the works, but who knows by

October there will be the third gen, ha ha.

 

Yes, the fins are toe'd differently, non are lined with the stringer.  The short rail side is 4" off the nose

just like our wing/swallow hybrid fish model, and the long side is 2" off the nose like our standard round

tail thruster.

Here is my attempt at posting a pic

 

Pat, my fin guy, momentarily stammered,

For one of our friends,

 

Carl holding one of the earlier variants, now a working testbed during this fall,

 

my personal 5'6"/5'8", I want it back,

 Left Arm of Buddha

Hope this helps,

George

27

[quote="$1"]

 

Pat, my fin guy, momentarily stammered,

For one of our friends,

 

 

Hope this helps,

George

[/quote]

George, hard to tell from the pics, but are you lining up the side fins "symmetrically?" It looks like the long rail fin is set forward of the one on the backside rail.  My inclination on the three asymmetricals I've made so far is to set the fins relative to their respective tail, meaning the backside rail fins are forward of the toeside rail. However,  It seems like it would still work if they were set the same distance from a common point.

Those boards you posted are freakin' sexy!

 

28

Hi George I like this one!

Hope to see you at the next Craft.

 

Kind regards,

michael aka surfding

29

So what is the reason for the squared off nose? I’ve seen Ryan Burch’s and Donny Brink’s, but they’re less symmetrical and have a shortboard side and an egg side, which is more obvious. Would an Alexander Gemini nose be applicable in this type of board?

30

Hi SurfThis,

 

You got a good eye bro, that is what I've been doing.  The short side is similar to a twin setting, about

8-1/2 to 9-1/4 up from its' own tail tip.  The long side is like my fav round tail thruster, up about 11 to

11-1/4 from its' tail.  I am still figuring stuff out but one thing I didn't mention was the long side has a lot

more tail rocker, so the fin set would be more forward (which it is.)

We've done quite a few of these and have shifted the fins around a bit.  I REALLY DON'T want to claim

"Hey, this is it" as that kinda pollutes the thinking of budding asymmetric designers- 

there is no right answer at the moment (but I can tell you, an asymmetric can be made to work horribly,

don't ask me how I know, ha ha.)  Oh, and thanks for the props, I'd like to think they work as good as they

look, (or they work better than they look, ha ha depending upon the beholder...)

 

 

Hi Mike!!

How have you been?  SC should be interesting this time around, rather than copy a marquee board,

Ekstrom threw a twist into the works:  competitors can shape anything they want, as long as it is asymmetric

(how they plan to judge a winner is beyond me, ha.)  (Should be an easy shaping task for me, I'll just try

to shape a symmetric board and it'll be plenty asym...)

Hey, I figured out a way to shape asymmetrics on my machine, but it is a bit of work, so I usually hand-finish

off a wider tail, you know what I mean.  Come by our booth or once I find out which day is the demo morning,

see how the A_Symms (and normal) boards that we've been doing look in action at the beach!  I hear you've

been making some killer boards, some rippers on them, and it looks like your son (?) is one of them.  It should

be just down the road from the exhibit hall, like 2 years ago.

 

Hi GhostShaper,

Joe and I had a good talk about how loose a normal shorty feels when the nose is snapped off, not sure if you

had that happen but the board gets kinda squirrely.  So, if we knock off the nose, then we can reduce tail

rocker to compensate for the new looseness, we get a faster and looser board.  (though I've made plenty of fast

boards with rocker...)

Maybe I should say quicker? ha.  I've ridden Jeff's boards and they are pretty impressive, I like the inverted vee,

(hard to handshape) but there is def something good going on with the concept.  The pickle fork is crazy, kinda

does the same thing but there is a little more mass glassing around those "tines" on the fork.  Just reminded me

of another thing, the outline of his boards is straighter, so a 5'10" will have some of the feel and draw of a 6'8",

you know what I mean, which when done right can feel really good.  His boards are fast, much respect for

the man.  With Ryan's and Donny's boards you bring up a good point, the board(s) is kinda polarized,

meaning the heel side will have one kind of "feel" and the toe side another.  I liked this one particular wing

swallow for backside, and the A_Symm has a lot of those attributes, but actually feels even better backside,

due to a lot of unknown reasons...

 

George

 

31

Hi George -

I for one am stoked that you're on to all this and willing to discuss a few details and not 'clam up' with "proprietary this and top-secret that."

I don't really like it when someone pops off that they were doing something in 1953 or whenever when people post something that is new to them.

That said, I couldn't help but see the similarities between the asym arc-tail and my vintage "Mad Jap!" Natural Progression/Santa Monica Airlines by Dean Edwards.  Pics don't do it justice but I thought I'd go ahead and post a couple anyway. 

I don't know when it was made... 80s?  Maybe the 'Mad Jap' himself lurks and can fill us in.

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Hi John,

 

I've met Dean long ago, that period had a lot of experimentation on many levels.  Looks very similar, the

arc is reversed, meaning the winger side is shorter on mine but other than that it's darn close.  Surely the stuff

we knew back then in the late 70's and early 80's has been eclipsed with better rails, rockers and contours,

but who knows, that may be a mutant that works!  Where is it now, do you still have it?  How does it ride?

 

I should say that template has been only a component of the entire package of fins, rockers etc.  Earlier I

also stated that quite a few of the ideas being presented are from others (didn't know about the D. Edwards

board though) and I can't claim the board by any stretch.

 

Thanks for the props regarding open source of ideas.  I always found it frustrating when someone flashes

the latest/newest widget but right when I step up for a closer look the thing gets clutched close to the guys

chest... "nope."  ...which makes sense if he wants to turn a buck, intellectual property and all, but in a forum

why show it? (unless it's a guerilla marketing ploy?)

 

If possible some more pics would be cool as that board is relevant to this thread and to other designers/

members of this forum for inspiration/ideas. 

 

Thanks John,

George

33

Hi George -

I have it in my board pile.  It's too small for me and I haven't ridden it so I'm not qualified to comment on the ride.  The dimensions are:

L - 6'2"

W - 19 3/4" (-3")

N - 12"

T - 15 1/4"

Th - 2 3/4"

Not sure on rocker specs. 

I should take it to Big Sur this year and let some of the young folk give it a try.  Here are some more pics. 

 

 

34

Thanks for those pics John.  I imagine the designer Dean Edwards had the same thought

process generating that template as my business partner Joe did just a few months ago.

The intuition is a round pin on one side and a winged swallow on the other then some

freehand connection between the two.

Stoked you still got it, would be cool to see someone give it a spin if it is intact enough

to handle a surf!

Now that I see it better, I think it must be about a 1986 or 1987 vintage.  I remember doing

those kind of color jobs about then, especially the deck strokes.  That was about the

time that Wil Jobson introduced his Twinzer.  Quite a few shapers were pulling away

from the thruster back then with all kinds of alternatives...  ...then the thruster got

a redux and came back as a potato chip with curly rocker (ruining the surfing of

untold numbers of surfers, IMO- *unless you were an elite athlete of the day.)

Thanks again!

 

Here's another pic, goofy on the left, reg on the right (but not necessarily...)

George

35

Slightly different take, but speaking of wing swallow/round pin from the 80s (from Sacred Craft last year):

 

36

George, here are the bottom photos you asked for.  Hopefully.  I am not really authorized to use a camera for reasons apparent.

BTW, I am happy to confirm the board goes front side really really well.  That was an unconfirmed data point after El Salvador.  Here are some pics’s (of others) from Irene:  www.gulfster.com  Surf was all time for us.   Just huge and offshore.   I am worn out.  I rode it the whole time the first day, then after I woke up the next day and realized the condition of my 59 year old arms, I switched to a LB.

 

I am not sure any of these captured what you wanted, so let me know and I will take another stab later.  I’ll number them so you can refer to them as you school us.

No 1

No 2

No 3

 

No 4

 

No 5

 

No 6

 

No 7

 

 

No 8

No 9

 

No 10

 

I really hope you get some takers to ride an A_Sym during Sacred Craft.  It will change the way you think about the full design package.  Your discussion about the fin cluster is pretty interesting. That 1 1/2 degree offset on the center fin is a big leap.

George, I think you would agree that as far as A_Sym design has come, there is a lot left to learn about this path.  I can’t wait.

37

Hi Greg -

In pic#5 your dog looks as if he can barely contain his excitement!

38

Cool Greg!

Stoked you chased Irene and got some off her, commendable. You've been on it.  You should

notice that board has quite a bit of speed, the fins are more free than standard thruster, less

drag than quad possibly.

Thanks for the pics, I want to get more specific.  My personal board is out on loan so I can't get

the pics.  I have some more to make but that is a week+ out.  I hope my candor is useful, and

not to put you to task Greg.  This is what comes to mind:

1. A full side view, maybe upside down on sawhorses, level board.  Photographer position is

critical, 90 deg out from the This is the hard part (sorry for the demands.)  Stick some tape,

I have colored narrow tape, maybe you got similar?, onto the rail rocker line, this will define

the rocker line of the rail against the rocker line at the stringer. Height of the shot is important

I want to see the closer rail rocker line about 1/2 to 1 inch below the stringer rocker line.  You

are standing normal to the stringer, both ends of the board should just be in the picture.

2. Rear view.  Pull further back than the shots 2, 3, 4 or 5.  Again, board dead-level, bottom

up and camera low, where wide point is the "horizon" at best, maybe flatter, use your discretion.

Idea here is to show how much tail "flip" there is on the long side vs. the short side.

3.  Series of bottom shots using straight edge and backlighting to show contour as it relates

the above rocker shots.  Then I can discuss what to look for to make the thing go.

 

If this seems a big pain, it is, sorry for being so fussy.  You don't have to do this, I can get

some shots but time factor.

 

Lemme know if there are any questions about the analysis,

George

39

printed your instructions.  will do later, raining now.

40

Hi GhostShaper,

That is the same inspiration, more thruster-ish, less fishy, and a swallow/round pin mix.

Helpful as is John's pic, all in the same genre.  Thanks!

 

Hi John,

Ha!!!!  Greg's dog is probably wondering why he's paying so much attention to some

white plastic thing and "not me..."  Give him/her a pat on the head at least Greg! ha!

I thought the lampshade was pretty wild btw...