Addendum: "...Photographer position is
critical, 90 deg out from the This is the hard part (sorry for the demands.) "
should read "...Photographer position is
critical, 90 deg out from the widepoint. This is the hard part (sorry for the demands.) "
BTW, shot No. 7 is kind nice but lower/flatter across the bottom, and shot from the side
(re. getting shot for task #1 above)
…hey +1, and what s happend with the outline? overall outline both sides can be assym? or only in tail area?
or better symmetric outline and only tweak the tail?
thanks
Greg, I think George of Plus One did exceptionally well to make the asymmetrit board work to your satisfaction.
I spent a lot of time running in and out of the water fiddling with the fin positions in lokboxes in an attempt to get my asymmetric board working some years ago. I also spent a lot of time creating asymmetric toe in with wedges. My story here:
http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1029789
the two asymmetric boards were built some years before that thread and some of my asymmetrical discoveries/frustrations explained in various places, but someone asked me to explain it in details so I produced the above thread.
My final conclusion - which I didn't fully test was that no amount of fiddling would make an asymmetric board work well unless the rear centre fin was moved off centre like George has done for yours.
Because I was too lazy to move the box - and somewhat disheartened by the whole thing I tested the theory that the rear fin had to be moved towards the longer rail by getting a canted side fin and canting it towards the longer rail. This definately helped, but it still wasn't working as well as a symmetrical board. That was explained in post 6 in the above thread, or for convenience, direct link here:
http://www2.swaylocks.com/comment/1314007/Re-MrJ-Asymmetric-tails
Hi Reverb,
Good questions. I've done them each of the ways that you describe. I found
that if the outline is completely asymmetric, the board can "crab" or goes at a slight angle
when going straight down the line. The opposite end of the asymmetry trip is just to tweak
the tail end (what I call "the business end") of the board. Fair gains are had depending on
how much the two tail templates diverge. A large gain was found when changing the lengths
of each, usually (but not always) results in a shorter backside/heelside rail. Credit Carl
with that rationale, and Maurice too, (the two of them together in the shop is something
to watch... ha ha)
The middle choice is what I've been doing a lot lately, asymmetric from the widepoint, aft.
And yes, the curves are different. For example, we took our favorite roundtail thruster
template and used it on one side, then our favorite wing/swallow on the other side. The
curvatures are different.
It gets deeper than that.
Seems a lot of attention is paid on the outline (perhaps the most obvious aspect of
asymmetrics,) but there are also the rocker line(s) and the rail shapes to be addressed.
What to do?
Build your two favorite boards basically and try it! The skill comes in blending the
two, eliminating the unnecessary and staying consistent with foil lines.
(I hope I'm not steering the thinking of anyone on here, the stuff described is NOT
the "be all, end all" of asymmetry, I have collaborated from established designers
and have taken things I thought might work. My guess is every thing I've put into
the A_Symm has all be done before, maybe not the exact combination but it's
all been done for sure. Yet there are a TON of other things to try. Lately, I've been
working on asymmetric rails as backside seems to like another rail compared to
frontside.
Hi Mr. J,
Just read your journey with getting the board to work, there are still options out there!
Don't give up. I've been working a bit with a local fin maker/designer Larry Gephart.
He is really into testing stuff, very methodical and precise. He says it best, every
perceived failure is a gain, "Well, that didn't work." Each session is learning, which has
inspired me many times when I got knocked back 3 steps- Sometimes knowing what
didn't work, is as valuable as knowing what does work if one takes a somewhat systematic
approach to things.
Well, you've done that mate. The rear fin is a HUGE discovery you made, by knowing
the set-up was NOT going to work with rear fin at center, you can deduce what will
work! Good stuff!
BTW, I sloped the (offset) center fin 1.5 degrees over to "favor" the round pin side.
The offset and tilt made for a lot of debate in our shop, it was a leap to do but got
rid of certain drag components/shockwaves (?) that normal set-ups have and ended
up working unreal.
Thanks for sharing your design push,
George
Wow George, good post. My gears are turning so hard I need to go pour some oil in my ear!
Update.
last year for my birthday I ordered a custom Assym from George on the account of this post cause GT is someone who has seen and felt some of the things I have on other designs like the 5-fin.
Unfortunately as things go the board showed up too late and too close to my third menicus knee operation in late December.
So it’s sat around all shined up in Surf Nano Wax just waiting for it’s christening.
I hadn’t been in the water for over four months and had been dreading the first go out post surgery knowing what its like paddling when you miss just one weekend, The first go out I took out a 9’ Gemini longboard and still struggled but a couple weekends ago I buckled and waxed up the Asyym for a test feel. Unfortunately the waves were ankle snappers with 15-20 MPH onshores so it wasn’t a good test but I could tell the way it cut back that there was something going on. I wasn’t expecting much as the other Assym riders told me it just seemed to “smooth” things out.
This past weekend I was lucky to get some chest to head high waves on both days the first being a 3 hour session surfing backside with old friends at my home spot Sharkcountry where i first learned to surf and grew up on the beach there. I’ve had problems surfing backside over the years because I rarely do but after my first wave I realized my assumptions about why we should ride assyms became apparant. Normally coming back around off the top or shoulder after the initial bottom turn is a challenge the older and slower your reflexes get. But the Asyym not only came off the bottom sharper it snapped off the top even quicker allowing me to snap off the top versus sort of a low crouched grind power carve off the top. It also allowed me to link a bunch of mini turns to pump down the line backside as I normally would do frontside.
The next morning I paddled out in the dark into our shark infested water to get ahead of all the SUPs now dominating all our lineups and got a similar experience front side, Not only was I able to come from behind but the cut backs at low speed were full round house into the foam ball bounce types i’ve never been able to do without speed before because of my weight and slow reaction time.
I’ve been a Griff convert for over half a decade and a Alexander Gemini convert for even longer because of the control and speed the produce in both fast and slow waves, I always felt I needed speed to compensate for my age and slowness and single fin surf style from the 70’s. But the assym showed me I can still pull off those skinny young punk on a potato chip moves without having to go 100 mph moving my fat old ass.
Definitely something worth checking out.
It might revitalize your surfing like its doing to me.
I’m so stocked for summer with my quiver of (6)Griffin 5 fins, (5)Gemini’s and now this 6’8" EPS epoxy PlusOne Assym from George.
One thing I’ve learned over my 40+ years of surfing and experimenting with all kinds surfcraft, is that contrary to popular belief it’s not about how it looks or how pretty it is, its about how it rides. And it’s not about how many waves you catch in a session, its about how you make the most of each and every wave you are blessed to have been given and how much fun you are having. Because it you aren’t having fun you shouldn’t be out there.
Mahalo George…
Great news, Oneula. Very glad for you with the board and glad you are back in the water. I think George is cooking up another enhancement and I am going to get on his list.
BTW
Once I get this Assym rounded pin/wind swallow mastered, the next new experiment is this CMP made EPS CorkCork epoxy laminated 6'8" Alexander Gemini
CoreCork is the new balsa, the new bamboo, the new no wax exposed deck all in one skin
[img_assist|nid=1065750|title=corecork gem|desc=EPS CoreCork Skinned Alexander Gemini|link=none|align=left|width=0|height=0]
Edited this post.
I used Bernie’s 6-8 assym yesterday in solid 6-8’ faces. The waves were pretty thick double ups. Paddles great, but I did get sucked over once trying to push through a set wave. The tide was coming up and the outside waves were pushing up onto themselves then building these nice big doubles. Get the right one and it’s a long winding wall that is constantly building from the push of the water behind. The wrong one and it’s just a big close out. Taking off was tricky, if you start early it didn’t help. The wave would often pass under you, or it would jack up fast. I tried to put myself right where the wave started doubling, where there was a little energy at the top. A little pop with the board and a couple hard paddles and I was on the wave.
It took 3 waves to figure out how to ride the board. I couldn’t get it to turn on the frontside the first 2 waves. Seemed like the board was too wide and too stiff. Maybe that I don’t ride thrusters, and I was a bit too far forward. Once a figured out where to plant my back foot, the board turned into a great board. I really like the way it cuts back. With the longer side on the toes, I had a nice drawn out board, and with the shorter side on the backside, I could get great gouging top turns. Had a few screamers that made my day. 100 yards and lots of big turns. Felt very smooth turning both ways. I really like the way it turned on the backhand when I made cutbacks. I got some really nice hard cutbacks and the waves were full of energy. The transition from coming back down and into the next bottom turn then cutting back felt very smooth. Got a few where I was hanging at the top, but I just stepped up more and the board would drop down and I just kept going.
George, I think a symmetrical board with the wing swallow tail would be a great board by itself. I like that tail. I like the way the board rode going backside, but I only rode 2 waves backside. Time will tell. I stopped by Surf Garage on my way to the beach and showed the board to Goro and gave him 2 of your cards. I told him if he was interested to call you. He said he knows your shop, may have sold a board on consignment. He has sold Carl’s assym boards too.
Rode my 8’ reverse assymmetric in Hawaii for the first time yesterday at haubush. Waves were a little lumpy and weak from the tide but George’s magic could be felt with each ride. How fast this thing paddles out and into waves is nothing short of amazing.
George your calculation on the drag effect is spot on and would probably shake the shaping world with its simplicity if they knew. The turns where still as smooth as the regular assymmetric but just sharper and quicker.
you wouldn’t believe the stares and questions everyone felt sorry thinking the nose broke off my blank and no one noticed the weird tail and three different fins and fin positions from afar only the chopped off nose. I like that they felt sorry for the poor guy with the broken board cause they gave me waves. When I told them its an “assymmetric”!most didn’t know what that meant, but the the crowd I surf with.most of us here are just one step away from our Neanderthal forefathers. I think this design in this size is the perfect any wave any break combination. I can even seeing myself going down in size to a 6’2"-6’4" later when I heal.
mahalo george
can’t say enough good things about everything you put into this design.
doublepost
Hah, while I was surfing with the 6-8 assym, I couldn’t help thinking that the nose looked like the tail of a modern square tail. Didn’t bother me at all. I ran into Charlie, “Honolulu” over here when I first paddled out. He was surfing the lefts next to the channel, I eventually wandered over to the rights where I like to surf.
I agree a 6-4 or 6-2 would be insane, but I like the way the 6-8 paddles. Getting back out after those long rides is probably better with the extra foam. Didn’t seem to hurt the ride once I figured out where to put my back foot. I hope the wind stops before first light tomorrow. I sure want another taste of this while the waves are up. Town was ugly today!
Hi Bernie, Hi Harry!
Great feedback guys, and from what I heard it was pretty juicy surf you got into at home.
Here, the waves are usually a lot more glassy, we’ve been in well over double overhead
all the way down to 1ft ankle slappers and still staying fun. Your info is the first in heavier
water, thank you for that.
Today I had Carl and Tak over for quite a while, they where all ears as I read both of
your experiences. Ekstrom was saying that the “reverse” may be seeing favor because
of “how each surfer rides” and that some guys like them the original way if they are more
“back footed” versus “front footed.”
So far, with the ones I have been doing like yours, it has been unanimous that the reverse
is more “lively” and faster. We are also now starting to control flex with hull pressure
(thanks to Bufo) and we are finding you can **adjust **flex of one board easily. We are
amazed how much the flex changes with the new foams like the one you have, by fabric
orientation and internal hull pressure. Pretty blown away by this as it is better than the
predictions. Bernie’s second A_Symm has the offset layups in it.
Curious how the boards ride when it is smaller as well, so please keep the feedback
coming! Getting ready to send a batch of the A_Symms to Australia, we will post
some pics on our facebook page.
Super stoked! You guys are solid!
Best regards,
George
P.S. Changing out the fins on Jeff’s Gemini board, more stiff will work well I think!
Oh yeah, Harry, I got friends riding the chopped nose boards where they live in
East Cape Cabo, and the SAME THING, people tripping, "Oh! Too bad, your nose
broke, go ahead on this wave…" (making me think we need to get some beat up
rash shirts so it looks like you “scratch 'em on reef” to gain even more
“sympathy.” HA!!!)
Just act like you got worked, then, when the set comes…
hah, I wear a lot of hand me down stuff from Bernie, sometimes I borrow, but forget to return. I have an old T&C tank top rash guard I wear and it’s so old the T&C screened design is worn off in places. Had guys asking what design that was, then they see the other side and realize it’s T&C.
I rode the assym again Tuesday and the swell a little bigger. I was able to get the 2 biggest waves of the morning (while I was out). I’m enjoying it a lot, but it’s because it’s a great paddler.
I think your comment about the front footed versus back footed surfer is spot on. I had to adjust my stance to make the board work. This is the original version with the longer side on the frontside. I think that it may also be because I was riding 6 foot boards with a slightly narrower tail most recently and this is 6-8.