Hi all,
I’m almost finished shaping a duplicate 6’ channel island biscuit and I’m looking for a little feedback on a problem I ran into.
There is something off about the bottom right hand rail, its a small indent in the deck and rail, I’d like to fix it but I don’t know how. When you look at the picture its almost like the board has hips. Any suggestions how I can save this board.
Picture below of the board I’m working on and the actual board I’m trying to duplicate.
thanks guys.
Josh
It kinda looks like the board has some irregularities in the curves, but then a lot of times its the camera that makes it look that way. I would say study the board in extreme sidelight, also measure off the stringer both ways in several places, and bring the rails in just a tiny bit as required to get the curves and symmetry back to where you want them.
Foam is so soft, and its easy to "over-shape" if you're not careful. BTW - there have been some good threads in the past on rail bands and rail shaping. I think if you had used rail bands while shaping, it would have helped to avoid the problem. Search the forum for rail bands http://www.swaylocks.com/cgi/search.cgi?searchString=rail+bands&db=forums&Submit=Go
not symmetrical & there are bulges in he curvature on the rails, get the dragon skin on that shit
Thanks guys.
I used rail bands but so I’m not sure where I went wrong…
I’ll measure as you suggested and maybe just take an 1/8 of inch all the way around to improve it - I can’t make it anyworse, as it stands it garbage. If I screw it up further its still garbage.
What is dragon skin?
Josh
It looks to me like something has been chewing on your bisquit’s outline, especially from looking at your third pic. Still don’t get discouraged when you finally see how bad your outline is.
It seems to me that if you have proper side lighting, and you're using rail bands, that kind of irregularity would just jump out at you before it got to that point. My guess is that you had overhead lighting, (and maybe a few cervezas hahaha) when you were rounding the rails / deck, and didn't notice that you had overworked some areas. An eighth inch is a lot to take off all the way around, so make sure you really need to lose that much to get the shape back.
We all have stories like this, so don't be discouraged, don't panic or give up on the board, just keep with it, do your best, I'm guessing you'll like the board when its finished. Every board I have made has had some discouraging problem or another at some point, but working through the solution is an important part of the learning process.
Hey Josh, G'Rat is being funny but he's not kidding you. From the lighting (like Huck says) hard to say for sure but you have two different boards going. The rails are different from each other. Choose the side you like and get a contour gauge and use it as a template for the other rail to match. Make sure your outline is the SAME on both sides. Meaning the same distance from a center line (not nescessarily the stringer) at all points along from nose to tail....both sides. It looked like you could foil the tail deck also. The lights might be telling lies but it shows a whoop tee do on the deck and not a smooth even arc. Harbor Freight sells a plastic contour gauge that is better than the wire type. They sell for about $10.00. You just need to spend more time with it. Stare at it and take a lot of measurements. Keep Going!
At least you have the courage and sense enough to ask. Symmetry, is pleasing to the eye, nonetheless rare, yet something to strive for.
Take a step back, and follow the curve slowly with your eye. Good templates help, so at this point, make a good template prior to the board.
Thanks again,
I’ll take your advice, pick a side and try and duplicate it onto the other… I’ll keep everyone posted on the progress.
I built the template in boardcad, printed it out and traced it onto the board, thought it was even but maybe not. I noticed some guys seem to use wood, with a section for the front curve and a second for the rear. Not sure how they know what piece to use or how those work.
tblank, I agree the deck as a bump or bumps in it front to back and side to side. How do you guys get that smooth round side to side deck?
Josh
Hi Josh, It is difficult to give you specifics on this particular board due to the photos et. al.
But, there is a whole discussion on "blocking" written by deadshaper that is the real deal lowdown on how to plane and sand a blank. The basics are that you use loooooong sweeping strokes from end to end. What this accomplishes is that the longer sanding block disperses the contact over a wider area and in moving front to back the bumps are shaved a bit and the dips are bridged over until the two meet on a common plane. Short strokes concentrate the planing/sanding. I would reccommend using tempered masonite hardboard or similar product (plastic sheets) instead of paper. The paper is only for the initial concept of outline. A ridgid, static piece of material will not shift around on you. The downloadable templates are strictly for starters to get you to a proper temp to work off of. Try to get into the habit of drawing your own outlines using your own eye to tell you what rings your bell or not. As always.....Keep Going!
Thanks for all the opinions, will be doing some measurements tonight, and moving forward.
I’ll post a few more images if I can save it.
Josh
Make sure your template is nice and smooth with no lumps or dips in the curve. Re-template just a hair inside your current outline and do the rails over again.
Keep at it.
That’s a nice board.
The asymmetry in the outline is very familiar to me, since I tend to produce boards with similar asymmetric rails. The stage at which it happens to me is when I cut the outline.
At the stage you’re at, I agree with what’s been said, that you should re-outline the board keeping as much of the foam as humanly possible but bringing it to a symmetrical condition.
What number of board is this for you?
Cheers.
Hey Castrillo, this is my third or forth board depending on how you count them, completed two, took one to glass and then tossed it, I hated the shape. So this is my forth I guess.
I took everyones advice and re-templated it about an 1/8" of an inch inside the previous line. Seemed to work great except I think I made the same mistake and didn’t cut the line exactly straight so I ended up with another small bulge on one of the rails. Frustrating but it looks much better. Blocked it, faded in the rails. Here is where it sits now, needs a little clean up still but not to bad. I don’t think I"m going to glass it, its just not perfect enough but it was a good learning experience.
I’d love to hear comments and suggestions on how I can improve it, or on if I’ve improved it from a symmetrical standpoint.
thanks guys
https://swaylocks7stage.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/IMG_0032.jpg
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Here is where it sits now, needs a little clean up still but not to bad. I don't think I"m going to glass it, its just not perfect enough but it was a good learning experience.
I'd love to hear comments and suggestions on how I can improve it, or on if I've improved it from a symmetrical standpoint.
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My take, for what its worth (I've only built 7 boards from scratch, rebuilt one that was broken in two): Glass the board. Quitting is never an option.
Does your glassing need practise too? (seems like it might, since you mention taking a board out to be glassed) Well, here's the perfect opportunity to get some. What exactly is the problem with the shape - a low spot? Then, how will you handle it when doing ding repairs and you have a low spot pressure ding on the bottom that needs to be repaired? Cut a piece of glass the shape of the low spot, and glass that low spot, then feather the edges. Still low? Do it again. A high spot? Sand it down. Problem with the rails? Lap the rails, and you'll have twice the glass there to work with.
I'm a carpenter / contractor by trade. Making a living as a craftsman, I can tell you, the measure of a man's skill is his ability to roll with the punches and fix the goofs.
You should definitely glass the board and ride it. I forget who said it but I read a thread the other day and somebody commented that "water is stupid" and they are right, in that water flows around our small imperfections. Small imperfections in outline and foil or banding dont make huge differences in ride IMO. You cant expect to shape like Mike Daniel or Jim Phillips or any number of the amazing shapers around here on your fourth attempt or even your 100th attempt. These guys have shaped thousands of boards and still strive to be better. We should too. Hell I have shaped 6 or 7 and they are all lumpy and ugly (each a little less than the previous). But they catch waves, ride well and I love them all.
Glass it and ride it. You wont learn as much if you dont ride the board and see what she does.
T
I’m going to take the other track. Don’t glass it.
Whittle it down to nothing. Practice with your planer. Practice running rail bands. Try to make them equal width. Practice blending them in with a sanding block. After smooth, band it again. Put the blank on edge in your rack. Practice running your planer to square up the template. This step would have saved you from the wiggles on the first attempt. **Even if your template has wiggles in it, squaring up your outline with a power planer makes them obvious, and smooths them out. You will never hand sand as smooth a line as well as you can with a long based power plane.
**
Why waste $100 on glassing something that you know you will ride once, and say what a dog.
You might get the experience of shaping ten boards just by whittleing it down to nothing. A thought to everybody out there who has a dog board that they are going to trash. Strip it down and practice with your tools.
I thought we were trying to be green here. Otherwise, you might as well send a gallon of resin straight to the trash dump.
I think Everyday has good advice. Use that blank refine your skills. Before you start reshaping. Go talk to the people That glassed your other board. They may know a shaper that would be willing to look at what you have going and give you a few tips.
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Why waste $100 on glassing something that you know you will ride once, and say what a dog.
You might get the experience of shaping ten boards just by whittling it down to nothing. A thought to everybody out there who has a dog board that they are going to trash. Strip it down and practice with your tools.
I thought we were trying to be green here. Otherwise, you might as well send a gallon of resin straight to the trash dump.
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Hey Mark, howzzit?
I guess the assumption is that the board will be a dog - but not necessarily. The latest pics look like a pretty nice board!
Plus, "I think a lot of really good boards need some wacky component to work against: some straight spot or some weird little kink or bump that kind of lets you work against it. Some of the best boards I've ever ridden were boards with aberrations or twists, and the most boring boards I've ever surfed have been the most technically perfect." - Dave Parmenter in TSJ
"In the seventies, Terry Martin was shaping a board for my wife and told the story of the time that Joey Hamasaki brought in her favorite battered old magic board for reference. Terry warned her that the old board had a twist in it and had probably changed shape over the years. She took the new board but came back in a couple of weeks asking for the same shape but this time with the twist." - surf-shot
Another assumption is that it goes straight to landfill - but again, not necessarily. I mean, people do decorate with wallhangers, grommets need a starter board, etc. Sometimes even a dog can be modified - new fin placement, take something off the tail, etc. http://youtu.be/FIZOk4eAeHE
Although I guess if it does go straight to the landfill, my thinking is, thats better than the next one that gets shaped spot-on the way he planned it going straight to the landfill because he goofed up the glassing for lack of practise LOL.
But that's just me. Different strokes for different folks, your mileage may vary.
Nice job of cleaning this up Josh! You put in some work here and it paid off. Two things: Mr. H. Berry is quite corect in stating a craftsman knows how to handle mistakes. There are no perfect objects here on Earth so we all screw up. A good craftsman can save things and make them work. Secondly, Everysurfer mentioned squareing up the outline before you turn a rail. This is essential and seems a step you might have missed. Cut the outline and use the planer or sanding block if not comfortable with the planer and make the sides square to the deck, no dips or waves in and out. Make sure you do this before going further next time. If you choose to glass this board, take the stringer down a little more. This will be a lesson you will never forget, so it is already a benefit. Whichever way you choose....Keep Going!
ps. Do yourself a favor and try a PU blank sometime and see what you think.
