Need your input about board design education plan

Hey guys, I’m doing a project on the possibility of creating a business that helps surfers explore how the different elements of surfboard designs help determine a boards performance.

 

I was wondering if you guys could take my survey which will help me determine potential demand and price range.  I need to collect 230 results within the next two weeks, so that I can compile the results and finish my paper by the beginning of March. See the website below and pass it on to your friends that surf.  I only want responses from folks who surf at least once a week or more.

 

http://shapersu.questionpro.com

 

Cheers

Nick Trabs

I took your quiz also.

  But the truth is most people who surf…even the pros…can’t handle the information overload associated with all the aspects of surfboard design. Shapers yes, surfers no. One simple test that I find proves this is when I try to get people I know to try my Speed Dialer fins on their fish’s. Most everyone I know wont do it. Not even for one session. When I try to tell them how great they work, that they will work even better then the set they are using now, they still wont try them. Their to afraid to risk one surf trying something new but me as a guy who shapes and is constantly trying new designs can’t stop buying new fin types.  And when I add to the conversation my thoughts on cant and toe-in they just roll their eyes and say something like, “Well I just ride what I ride and it works for me.” And that’s just when I’m talking about fins!

  I find most surfers want to keep things simple in there mind. If they like thrusters with V in the bottom then that’s what they are going to ride, no matter how convincing your argument for quads with some concave may be. People are trying to get what they have down and after years of perfecting riding a certain board they are afraid to change anything…some people anyway. 

  I also think that most surfers don’t get that deep into design beyond things like outline, number of fins, width and thickness because most surfers are not able to even notice the subtle differences associated with different bottom contours or fin designs, or tail shape. I think it takes a skilled surfer who has tried many designs to notice theses things.

Bill

this is like making science out of an artform. difficult, bot not impossible. good luck

btw i tried finishing the survey, but quit after having problems ranking board specs from 1 to 10, most important to least. they all are

cheers,

You'd probably get better results if you put your survey on other websites.  Many of us here already build boards.  We also all know where to get the information we need.  If anything there is too much information on boardbuilding available.  The trick is sifting thru it all and extracting the good from the bad.

Just do a youtube surch of any aspect of the boardbuilding process and you will likely find 20 videos demonstrating the techniques.

Total 100% agreement with Huck.Also, at 10 to 20 (or more) grand a year, "higher" education is not the place to take shaping classes. This is not directed at you Nicktrabs, this is a comment about the irresponsibility of the college system to charge exhorbitant fees for basketweaving type classes. Paying for a college education comes with great hardship and for them to matriculate (how's that for higher ed?) an individual with no real life skills to earn a lifetime living is highway robbery and out and out failure of their own system.

To those that will argue they make a good living making boards, consider the ratio of surfers worldwide versus the number of career shapers. That answer is way out of balance. Congrats to those that pull it off.

Having said all that, I will take the survey and try to help you out Nick.

maybe I should re-phrase and say I’m looking for folks who surf on a “regular basis”  (in my mind that’s roughly once a week), 3 or 4 times a month works.  The purpose of the survey is to see what the rate of interest in such a service is.

Huckleberry, I’d appreciate your input on the survey just as much.

 

http://shapersu.questionpro.com

 

Nick Trabs

Dude that is one fugly avatar!  I can't take your survey since I don't surf once a week or more.  Well, once a day on good weeks, but that's rare - like when I have a job by the beach.  Otherwise, its maybe three or four times a month. 

But I have to wonder how much people would pay to "explore how the different elements of surfboard designs help determine a board's performance", when Swaylocks is free and most surfers don't even hang out here.  Plus, the whole subject is so subjective - how much can you really "teach"?  Most surfers I know who don't shape don't really get into the different aspects of board design.  And the ones who do shape boards already have pretty well-formed opinions.

Awhile back Surfing Mag had an article on the subject (Jan 2002 Surfboard Design Issue) - I was surprised at how many pro surfers didn't really get into surfboard design at all.

Classic example of solving a problem that doesn't exist.    Too few surfboard comsumers care.   Today it's all about fashion.    A marketing survey would be more the order of the day.    Long way of saying Huck's right.

Thrailkill is right I think...fashion and marketing controls the board choices of the majority unfortunatley and the response to such a site here on these forums will be very different coz this is where surfboard brains come, good idea but dunno how popular it would be... long way of saying the above few posts are probably right....

I know I know, But even if you are all completely right, I just want to graduate from this frickin school and not look back!

 

Please take my survey! And help me graduate in March!

 

http://shapersu.questionpro.com

 

Thank You all for your responses

Nick

ok I took the survey

we could probably start a new thread and quit hijacking this one, but I figure even a hijack is bumping it up, so that's good, right?

[quote="$1"]

... the truth is most people who surf...even the pros....can't handle the information overload associated with all the aspects of surfboard design. Shapers yes, surfers no. 

...I find most surfers want to keep things simple in their mind. If they like thrusters with V in the bottom then that's what the're going to ride, no matter how convincing your argument for quads with some concave may be.  People are trying to get what they have down and after years of perfecting riding a certain board they are afraid to change anything...some people anyway.

I also think that most surfers don't get that deep into design beyond things like outline, number of fins, width and thickness because most surfers are not able to even notice the subtle differences associated with different bottom contours or fin designs, or tail shape. I think it takes a skilled surfer who has tried many designs to notice theses things.

[/quote]

Billy - that was a good post you put up.  I'm just a backyard hack.  I have observed also that it is difficult to get people to want to try something different, or to get them to discuss different aspects of surfboard design.  Like I mentioned above, the Jan.2002 issue Surfing Mag asked several pro surfers about surfboard design, most knew very little, and didn't seem like they cared all that much.  Shoot, I know longtime surfers who really know almost nothing even about how boards are made.

Pro's tend to stick with what has worked for others, and for them.  They have so much riding on their performance that they can't afford to goof around with wild unorthodox designs, for the most part.  And the average surfer isn't going to get into experimenting with radical design tangents, because of the cost.  Surfboards are just too dang expensive for the average surfer to run out and try a mini-simmons, a hull, a step-deck, a bonzer, a quad, a twinzer, a stinger, etc, etc.

So it falls upon us, as shapers, to do what we do.  Play around,  Think outside the box.  Compare notes.  Ask questions.  Brag on our successes, curse the failures, laugh about the dogs.  Post up our pics and blow each other away. 

Which is why in a recent issue of TSJ they said the computer is great for refinements, but new designs tend to come from the backyard guys.  Which I agree - I don't get too excited saying "let me build that exact same board but with a quarter inch difference in the rocker" - but hey, alter the file, let the cnc machine go at it, I'm all for that, let me know what you find out!  But a guy playing around with a standard thruster hpsb file on a computer isn't likely to stumble upon a mini simmons, or an alaia, ya know?

Plus, as has been said, there's the fashion issue.  A board that's too radically different, and you get funny looks, wise cracks, etc.  So hey, human nature being what it is, most will say No thanks.  But to a bunch of shapers, who kinda live within the four walls of the box, it turns us on to break out, or to see others break out.

I only discovered board building a year ago, but from my first board, I just knew this is what I was meant to do.  Maybe nothing more ever than a backyard hack, but I suspect I'll be building boards until the day they tuck me in the ground.  I'm just glad to have discovered board building, and Swaylocks.

[quote="$1"]

this is like making science out of an artform. difficult, bot not impossible. good luck

btw i tried finishing the survey, but quit after having problems ranking board specs from 1 to 10, most important to least. they all are

[/quote]

I learned long ago that with surveys you just have to suspend your belief in accuracy, and pick a reasonable facsimile.  Its like muiltiple question tests - don't over think, just pick an answer, fill in the blanks and go.

I agree about science vs art.  I think its kinda like the comment above about computers being great for refinement, but radical new designs coming from the backyard contingency.  Only you could rephrase it to say, science is great for refining, the radical new designs come from the artists.  For the most part.  Your mileage may vary.

not sure if you’re aware huck, but calpoly has a board shaping class.

i figured nick’s survey was to assess whether that subject could be eventually expanded to a full-on degree course, which calpoly could initially offer as “… evening classes on surfboard shaping, design theories, manufacturing materials, etc. with instruction from professional shapers…”

nautical engineering degree courses probably started the same way so it’s not really a lost cause IMO. but that hasn’t stopped garage builders from making their own boats either, in any case whatever works gets more mileage hehe

cheers,

[quote="$1"]

not sure if you're aware huck, but calpoly has a board shaping class.

i figured nick's survey was to assess whether that subject could be eventually expanded to a full-on degree course, which calpoly could initially offer as "... evening classes on surfboard shaping, design theories, manufacturing materials, etc. with instruction from professional shapers..."

[/quote]

What a waste that would be - as if the industry is looking for college grads to fill its numerous openings hhahaha.  Better incorporate foreign language into the curriculum.

howdy tblank,

this side of the pacific, there’s no shaping industry to speak of. yet. but the growing number of beginners is sustaining the first 2 (mall-chain) surfboard retailers that import (US-made) branded boards. one fil-am shaper closed down shop a couple years back, but not for lack of demand. those that get to pull it off need more than just luck to last IMO

cheers,

    Howzit Huck, Can you imagine a guy coming in to applying for a shaping job and saying "I have a PHD in surfboard building" Think I would just laugh my as off before tossing out the door. Give me a guy with hands on expierience anyday. Aloha,Kokua

Surfiber, I hear what you are saying, but would you want to spend that kind of money and effort to know your kid was taking shaping classes at a University??? Maybe at the local night school. How about the fact that there is potential for some guy to earn(???) tenure and retire on public funds teaching shaping? I've no problem with someone teaching the craft, just not onthe peoples's backs. Would you go to a guy that shapes but doesn't surf?

And you are right, it takes a lot more than luck to make a career out of it.

actually the concept is to introduce a monthly series where surfers can come and listen to a shaper who specialized in a specific topic talk about how that design variable works and can be manipulated.  A second offering would be to help those who are interested in learning to shape to have a place they can come (by appointment) and be guided through their first board if they wish or have someone help them refine his/her shaping technique.  I was thinking of collaborating with FoamEz and Bashams.  The object of the business would be to help create more intelligent surfers in relation to their equipment, the more knowledgeable they are on board designs the more likely they are to purchase a customized surfboard in the future.  The business also helps create a relationship between different shapers and a larger potential customer base.  The profit margins will be barely anything, but based on the results I am seeing so far, it will at least break even and could survive with the help of positive attitudes and a good network of shapers.

 

The idea is NOT to create a university degree in shaping surfboards.

 

Thanks to all who have taken my survey so far. I am only up to 20 responses.  So keep em coming!

http://shapersu.questionpro.com

 

Nick Trabs

actually the concept is to introduce a monthly series where surfers can come and listen to a shaper who specialized in a specific topic talk about how that design variable works and can be manipulated.  A second offering would be to help those who are interested in learning to shape to have a place they can come (by appointment) and be guided through their first board if they wish or have someone help them refine his/her shaping technique.  I was thinking of collaborating with FoamEz and Bashams.  The object of the business would be to help create more intelligent surfers in relation to their equipment, the more knowledgeable they are on board designs the more likely they are to purchase a customized surfboard in the future.  The business also helps create a relationship between different shapers and a larger potential customer base.  The profit margins will be barely anything, but based on the results I am seeing so far, it will at least break even and could survive with the help of positive attitudes and a good network of shapers.

 

The idea is NOT to create a university degree in shaping surfboards.

 

Thanks to all who have taken my survey so far. I am only up to 20 responses.  So keep em coming!

http://shapersu.questionpro.com

 

Nick Trabs

Who commented on the survey that they would be interesting in lecturing for a session?  PM me!

 

http://shapersu.questionpro.com

 

Nick Trabs