new guy new build thread

Have paid my dues building other lightweight  goodies but of surfboards and shaping I know nothing.

Was asked to build a kite surfboard.   After picking up the 8lb pieces of wood laying around the beach I said YA I can do this better.

read this form a little,  gave up reading it as it was mostly conjecture about unsteady hydrodynamics that could neither be proven or disproven.

but one post stuck Someone posted that instead of asking questions just try some shit and tell us how it goes .

This is my build thread.  .

Feel free to comment on, ask questions on, compliment or ridicule me for some  of the dumb shit I did.

I’m having great fun doing this.

He who knows, and knows he knows, he is wise…Follow him

He who knows, and knows not he knows, he is asleep…Awaken him

He who knows not, and knows he knows not, he is simple…Teach him

He who knows not, and knows not he knows not,  he is a fool… Shun him.

 

 

 

With no real idea of the structural loads applied, My board started life as one of many test panels shown below.

Starting with a known successful  construction method.  (I actually forget the origninal)  I weighed and beat the shit out of many combinations of panels.

The succesful layups in both weight and impact were subject to rigorous(ish)  (semi)controlled testing. measurements and deconstruction.

Those which failed to perform on par with the winning structure  had the piss beat out of them for the sake of pointless curiousity.

  I shot some with guns, others with arrows. beat many with hammers or the heels of my feet till they hurt.

This build was done primarily to fund further materials purchase and testing.

 

 

Test panel is a good way to greatly increase your knowledge of composits but you need a strict protocol where you measure forces applied and/or energy and elongation of panel to make effective comparison. With many test and a bit of search you can find the holy grail…

6-10ft strapless airs are common in kiteboarding so sufficient impact toughness at a mimum weight  was the design criteria My first round of tests tests were not terribly rigorous,  build it, ensure Vf is reasonable,  weigh it Jump on it, to see if it breaks dents or delaminates then compare to others.

 

Jumped from a height where the pain in my heels felt worse  than a  familiar flat landing after getting punted off a wave.

Tested sandwhich vs non sandwhich

wood veneer vs non wood veneer.

corecell vs dinycell

1lb vs 2-3lb cores

and different cloth orientations

Really weeds out some materials and build methods for what I wanted.

After testing multiple panels for impact toughness.

I found the following (much of this is probably familiar to most of you)

corecell absorbs significantly less resin than D-cell  the resultant structure is therefore lighter

multiple lighter plies oriented at 0/90, 45/45 perfoms considerably better in impact than thick plies running in fewer direction

carbon performs poorly in impact. carbon is brittle, the resultant structure that will survive a comparable impact was heavier than a comparable E glass or S glass panel and unwelcomingly stiff

wood veneer (I tested birch)  adds a lot of toughness but does so at bit of a weight penalty compared to other methods. heavy.

sandwhich structure was considerably better in impact  than non sandwhich and considerably lighter than if core weight is increased to obtain similar HIGH IMPACT TOUGHNESS… (volume and required toughneess can easily change this conclusion depending on your application)

Spectra is a cool fabric. You can hit 4oz of it it with a hammer as hard as you can not pierce the composite.  a metal tipped arrow fired from 15 yards will blow through it though.  the tensile strength is off the charts,  yet it is quite flexible.   The flexibility did not have sufficient stiffness to protect the core and it dented easily (on it’s own) .   compression buckling and delams between plies are  also a concern…however this material has potential for high toughness applications.Especially when mixed with a stiffer composite on the 0/45/45 where it will not drastically affect the board stiffness.

My crude testing was not of sufficient resolution to determine the differnce between D cell and corecell toughness,  E glass S glass toughness . or different resins. A controlled weight drop and compression buckling rig needs to be done before pursuing combinations of spectra and other materials.

Given I’m going ot build a board and not a test lab,  I settled on

1 x 6 oz s glass @ 0/90

1 x 6 oz s glass @ 45/45

1/8" corecell voids filled with dry micro

1x 6 oz s glass @ 45/45

1lb EPS voids filled with dry micro

1 x 6 oz s glass @ 45/45

1/8" corecell voids filled with dry micro

1 x 6 oz s-glass @ 0/90

The resin I chose was system 3 general purpose. It has an abnormally high % elongation compared with other epoxies  and tensile strength and modulous that are not out of line with the others. So in theory should be tougher than most under high deformations…It’s also cheap and readily  available.  My plan is to vac with perf ply and  breather to obtain a high Vf then dry micro and paint  to make back some weight gained with the extra glass so UV capability or colour  is not a concern.

Cool research.

 

Next step.

Bought some foam from home depot, a standard 1 piece of 2" 1lb foam made by plastifab. Given my glass structure a stringer sure is heck isn’t gunnna be needed for stiffness, It’s gunna be a balancing act between thickness and volume to keeps some flex in it.

Rocker will be added with a rocker table Also there are no foam suppliers nearby so purchasing a blank + shipping would probably cost more than this entire build.

it’ll be sandwhiched so water leakage into the core is not likely. Cut the outline based on the guys current favourite board but with a bit more width to get more range out of the board. Most of our boards we have suffered heavy rail damage due to cart wheeling down the beach in 30+ knots of wind so a tough rail is a must. glued on a chunk of 3/4" divinycell using gorilla glue

awesome…keep it coming.  we will be heckling and cheering back here in the peanut section.

Since 1 lb foam isnt’ holding much of anything I want to ensure the fin boxes are solidly mounted.

So had to decide my fin placement.

Since I know nothing of boards I simply looked at a lot of pictures online.

Kiteboards seemed to have between 1-2 degrees of toe in.  on the front fins

surfboards 2.5-5 .

This makes sense to me, kiteboards go fast. toe in creates drag.  a kiteboard with excessive toe in might l be a turd,

Surfing is all about the turns  a board where the ass swing out as you lean it and pull the outside fin out of the water could be awesome,

But I openly know nothing and am using my knowledge of vehicle alignment and roll stability and appying it to surfboards…so take what I’m saying like it was coming from that kid down the street that can’t tie his shoes yet. 

Anyway settled on 3degrees  for the front fins and 1.5 for the rear,  A little more than the average kite board cause the ass end is a little fatter than the average kiteboard and is gunna need some help swinging around.

Went with a quad, dude wanted 5 fins,  and I told him there is no way in hell I’m spending hours perfectly sanding this thing whilst looking at a fucking gaping wound (or 2) of indeciveness.   "If you want a fast board, tri fin or quad…choose now…quad it was. Placed them near the outside of the board,  cause  I can’t think of any good technical reason why you’d want em closer to the center…I’m sure there is one.  but his favourite board had them on the outside as well…this was sufficient affirmation for my decision.

After deciding fin placement, I began shoving in sticks of divinycell for reinforcement where the fin boxes are gunna be…again a cartwheel down the beach in 30 knots of wind needs to be survivable

Used gorilla glue for this too. I tested gorilla glue vs epoxy and epoxy+dry micro and found it to be lighter and easier to ensure the gap is totally filled. Also easier to plane without ripping the foam up. All three have sufficient adhesion to tear 1lb foam to pieces so it got my stamp of approval as “strong enough”


no heckling here!  I like what you are doing.

One question, where do you get spectra cloth?

One tip, you can avoid filling the holes in the corecell.  Wet out the cloth on a wet out table, and apply to the board.  Slip it into teh vacuum bag, ( assume you have one since you are skinning with corecell) and then turn it over so the wet cloth is on the bottom.  Gravity will keep the epoxy in the cloth, and not drain into the foam.

Every surfer, cool tip.  this would give a nice surface and keep the weight gain down.

Sadly I’m adding rocker on a table and have no stringer…to ensure I keep my shape, probably have to keep it rightside up.  The rocker table wouldn’t lend itself well to flipping it upside down without some redesign.

also the way I plan to do concave using my existing table  makes it impossible to flip over. My rocker table is plywood  with a skin of aluminum screwed to it  I’m gunna stick a piece of shaped wood between the aluminium and the ply wood, vacuum the board to the aluminium then use sand bags to weigh the aluminum down to get the concave.   Gravity will kinda make up for my lack of skill with a planer.

secondly  using breather perfply and a wet out table ,I had some adhesion issues between the outer lams and my corecell on 1 or 2 of my test panels. worked most times but a few were right offs and peeled right offnot something I had time to explore or fully understand, so I started filling em. Which has the added advantage of knowing accurately what the Vf of the fiber is without measuring the goo that’s stuck in the foam.

When I’m making a painted or non cosmetic part I usually use perfply and breather as I can get a lighter part and most times stronger due to less voids and shit, Moving epoxy around can compensate for a shitty lam job.  A good laminator should be able to do it  light strong and void free regardles of the method used…but I am not a good laminator. .

As to the spectra the place where I got it seemed kinda secretive about it. They were approaching it like it wasn’t legal to even have it…generally the only purpose for this shit is ballistics or other nefarious machinations. Epoxy doesn’t bond terribly well to it so doesn’t have much structural purpose.  But it exceeds the tear aways strength of foam so should be a go for surfboards.

Maybe they were just being sales guys trying to sell me a useless roll of unobtanium at an inflated price  …or maybe they were using it strictly for nefarious purposes…  I’ll ask if they don’t mind selling more. They had a whole roll…fun to cut…only BRAND NEW kevlar sheers will do the job, I used a hot wire cutter, which is AWESOME as it prevents any and all fraying. of the fabric when working the shit out of it…(which you need to do to get the cloth to take resin)  wish you could do this with carbon or glass.

 

As to the board progress. the next 3 won’t be terribly exiting photos, and will add them for drum roll purposes only

 I’m sure there is a better way to do this.  but this way I guarantee a perfect fit minimal glue usage (lighter)  and good clamping pressure on every insert.  If I made a hole with a router and then tried to get something to fit there’d be some serious gaps to fill. Again just tryin shit and letting people know how it works. this way takes 4 days to complete.

 

 

well not exciting but gunna follow through on the build thread.

 

was it Einstein who said genius is 1% inspiration and 99% persperation? - IMO the best lessons learned are from sticking to it even when its not fun (or exciting) anymore, and seeing the project through to the end.  I’m sure I’m not alone in looking forward to following this thread wherever it takes me!

In case you missed the spoiler alert a few days ago, here’s today’s progress.

Finbox reinforcement done.  Although the process was slower than dirt, using the D-cell to saw a hole of perfect tolerance into the blank worked very well

Tomorrow I take the planer and make it look proper. Back to the fun stuff…:slight_smile:

 

 

cleaned up the mess with my ghetto planer  worked like a charm

Yes the nose still needs some work :slight_smile:

While the threads about about arguing, or the threads about arguing about arguing, or the threads about the bygone days, or the latest incarnation of ancient design (oxymoron) and materials seem to have no trouble staying at the top, at least until they get sent to errors and bugs; here’s a thread where somebody is trying to apply some modern tech and it sinks like a rock?

I may not agree with this build tech but at least it deserves attention - this place used to be the best tech forum around but it, like the industry, is just going back to doing PU/PE boards because its “too hard” to do anything different. 

I agree thank you .

Mike Daniel thanks for the thread bump and  promoting some tech, It’s what I came here looking for and hoped the thread would fire up some discussion. on the best ways to build tough boards,   After all the research I did to independently figure out my board layout I later realized I pretty much arrived  on firewires construction with more glass.  Not bad for a first surfboard design…but not terribly innovative either…But I’m just gettin started.

 Now see how well I can build it.

Built a router sled  to get the taper I wanted on the board,   I don’t have one of those nice fancy planers where I can kick it freestyle   nor the skills to rock them freehand the way some of you guys can…I’m more the kinda guy that needs a ruler to make a straight line.

The thread will get a bit more interesting once my blank is shaped…I weigh EVERYTHING as I build stuff. and will keep you guys informed of where the weight is going. However, I can’t really weigh the components of the blank because I’m sawing through them at the next step.

Can any of you give me some targets on what the ranges are for  GOOD surf boards  This boards a 5’8 x 18.5. x 2(ish)

 

 

Yes Mike D…I’m watching the thread…sure got easy buying blanks instead of making them…and it’s not cheaper to make your own blank…maybe the San Diego Crew needs to go in on a big block of EPS like we did in 05/06…or maybe just sit back and watch…

…it cost $14 to have US blanks glue in a custom stringer…Wow! They saved me several hours of labor…

Great thread!  Keep up the good work!

Stingray

To answer your weight question; in those dims a normal stock glass 4/4/4 PU/PE would weigh about 5 3/4lb. Single 4 deck with little foot patches would get it down to 5lbs or a little under. Using the lightest PU blank possible and extreme care in glassing might be able to get it down to 4 1/2, but board would last anywhere from 3 waves to 3 weeks.

On the other end of the spectrum, we could build (and have) that at 3 1/2lbs, but we prefer to do it at 4.25 and have good durability. 5lbs for us would be getting into the “really really strong” area.

But for kiting and all the nearly static point loads, I’d say 6lbs would be a good target. If you come in under that and it holds up, you’ve done well!

Busy weekend,

The EPS core with inserts shown above weighed 430g, I filled /sealed the core with epoxy and  micro, the exact ratio I don’t know but it was just enough to be spreadable. not dripping from the stirstick. 2 sides of micro brought the weight to 527g

I let the micro kick for for an hour so that it would not react with the glass but still create a chemical bond well this is what I meant to do  Life still happens when you build a board and so it ended up almost fully drying after 5 hours before I could get to it.

The coated core cell weighed  463g prior to install

2 sheets of 6oz glass weighed 230g

I wet up the glass using a wet out table and when all was put together ended up with 241g of epoxy in the mix. I ended up having to throw another  70g to make sure the skin were well bonded,  had I laminated the board in proper time I would not have put the extra in. but it was pretty full of voids and I could not guarantee a good lamination given the other fill had already dried. 

threw it onto the rocker table and added my concave by shaping the rocker table with a spacer underneath and forcing the shape with sandbags.

Ran the vac at about 21 in Hg.   Had a bit of crush going on, but this is not a bad thing structurally.  Was a cold night so I had to bring it in.

In summary 1lb core with finbox and rail reinforcements 430g

Core filler 97g

2 x 1/8"  80kg/m3 corecell cell skins with fill 463g

2 x 6oz sglass 230g

epoxy 241 g

Screw up 70 g

Total skinned and reinforced core 1510g