So I finally sold a couple boards and thus had cash to start some new building projects. Over the years I’ve settled on Greg Leohr’s “Timberflex” build schedule- 1.5 lb EPS, 4/veneer/4 deck and 4/veneer bottom. Sometimes on larger boards where weight is less of an issue I put a coiuple of patches where the deck pressure dings would be. It’s a solid, light build.
THis past week I called around to get a blank and suppliers were out of hosrtboard EPS blanks. Anybody else exerpeincing this/
My questions are - has anyone tried the “timberflex” build over a polyurethane blank? I’m thinking it might be heavy and dent easier. I know denting is mostly an aesthetic issue, but I usually ride my boards a while and then sell them and heavily dented decks chip away at resale value. Also, my last conventionally built boards (almost 20 years ago) would end their life when the heavy deck denting eventually delammed.
I’ve used veneers in several PU builds and they work great. I’ve done full decks and deck patches as well as fin patches. I’ve never done a full top/bottom, though. I never saw the need for that much reinforcement on the bottom.
In the pics below, the deck shot was before glassing and the bottom shot was after glassing. I used a VE resin with some white tint. The fin patches cover my first rout-in fin install. I did veneers because that blank was a $10 second from a batch of blanks that had a bad reputation. The veneers were scraps left over from other builds.
Thanks, gdaddy. I totally remember that board. It’s really nice. Did it have concaves? Funny thing is my plan was to make another e-wing twinzer. I was going to add a center box because I found the canards are in exactly the same place (12-1/2" up) as the side bites for a widowmaker. I don’t know how the ewing would affect the widow maker? I just had a good winter on a widowmaker, but as the surf got smaller it was feeling a bit stiff. Convertible would be nice.
What glass schedule did you use with veneers on poly? 4 over and under? How did it hold up over time?
All the boards I’ve snapped failed on the bottom and creased the deck, so I think a skin down there helps. I also like it just for aesthetics.
My blank option right now is a 6-6 EA in poly. The only EPS I found was a Marko 7-6 JJ but that’s too long. I also have a block of blue dow lying around…but that is a whole other ball of wax with attendent problems…
I ran a bigger main fin (3/8" plywood from Home Depot) on that one, too. No channels, just a little vee with a flat bottom. That board was/is a pretty good combo; it always holds when I need it to hold and releases when I need it to release. The deck has held up really well, just very slight denting, almost imperceptible. This was the first board that I used veil with in order to get the adhesion with the veneer. I also always run a layer of fiberglass under the impact area on the deck and at the fins but then again I’m notorious for overbuilding. I used epoxy to glue the veneer and underlay on and VE resin for the rest of it because I had some laying around and I had previously used it before on another veneer.
I’m older now so I don’t surf the board anymore, but my middle kid surfs it in head-high plus conditoins.
As for breaks, I’m in northern SD County so board breakage isn’t really an issue here. Conditions are more serious where you surf so I can see why you’d opt for full deck/bottom. That’s where the stringer under the veneer comes in.
For the boards you build and the conditions you surf I could see the 6-6 EA being the perfect blank for this build.
I vaccumed bag for a guy, he made timber flex tech (0.6mm bamboo no paper back) on poly blanks, lighter one’s with thinner stringer. He lam bottom 4 or 6oz poly resin I bag bamboo deck with 4oz under epoxy resin then lam over 4oz epoxy too. Boards ended no so heavy but stiff. He do this to fight dents (heavy guy) that work nice for him.
Stone shape design in Australia make hi performance timber deck windsurf all poly resin on stringerless pu blank. Everyone said that boards are perfect and durable.
Thanks lemat. i would rather have a stringerless…but not possible right now. If I had a band saw I could cut it out, but then the blank would be very close to my desired finish width.
I’m OK with stiff. I can’t really tell. I prefer to geg my performance chracteristics from the rocker, and the 6-6EA has what I consider relly nice rocker.
We did a few veneer over PU foam. They come out heavier than the same build using EPS foam, but stronger. The ones we did using 1/8" balsa are very solid boards that don’t get pressure dents. Charlie Price (BB30) used both PU and EPS cores in his compsands, those boards are very strong. Love showing guys how strong the skin is by hitting it, they don’t get pressures.
I never used skinz. I just went with the lightest non-woven veil I could find. IMO it makes a big difference when adhesion is an issue, like when I’m making wood fins. TBH, I’ve gone back primarily to using PU cores for the structure and lighter all-fiberglass shells (in epoxy) except when the aesthetic of the board can benefit from a hemp or veneer deckpatch. The PU foam is so much better than in 2006 when EPS became the thing that it’s hard for me to justify hassling with EPS for any of the boards we surf.
I haven’t done a PE lamination in almost 20 years.
No 6’6 M’s ?? I brought back a few 6’0 and 6’6 M blanks from Marko about 3 weeks ago. I was in FoamEZ and there back room rack looked full to capacity of Poly and EPS. I do know that Marko EPS is in high demand right now. They have been running behind on their orders a bit, but still able to fill them in reasonable time. With all the “Supply Chain” issues we are currently experiencing; I think the major foam companies are doing about as well as can be expected. Keep in mind there are three EPS Blank suppliers; Marko, Millennium, and U S Blanks.
Hello; of course with PU will be heavier…the point to use PS is the weight not that is a better foam…in fact is a worst foam.
If you had a deck delamination with conventional materials; was due to at some point Clark foam PU was not so good (better than crappy foam like many other smaller brands had)
and the lamination work, dubious. A heavy inverted “V” due to the accumulation of dents can hold that way for many years, even if you have an small stress crack over the central stringer.
I’ve used several Marko molded EPS blanks. I really like their foam, and I still have a 6’6" Halibut waiting to become something. I was going to make a big boy short board for Bernie, so I drew out a few ideas. I decided to paint over other lines I had drawn to be able to see this outline, but the blank is still waiting, uncut.
I refer people to Greenlight all the time and have bought a few tools etc from you myself. But honestly; There is plentty of everything out here. Some people just don’t know it. Lowel
Yep nice shape. I see this week an old PU with bamboo deck board light dents on deck but rest of boards seems really abused. The guy surf this board a lot and he says that veneer deck protect it a lot from dent. He show me his last channel island standard glass board, cave deck after 10 surf.
So I bet you will be happy with your timber on PU.
I would go with your xps too. With sandwich over give best results for hard used kite/foil boards more and more used it successfully like that.
Depends on how much the shaped blank flexes or sags. And how you support the shaped blank while vac-bagging.
Put the shaped blank on saw horses with different spacing between them (close together, far apart, etc.). See if rocker changes. Place it on the different sawhorse positions with both top and bottom side down.
Maybe some of the vac-bag gurus can give more insight.
I 've bagged a lot of stringerless boards. But my build schedule has 4 oz under the veneer as well as over. I do that layer before any bagging and it holds the rocker pretty well. I find you still have to nurse the bag as you initially pull vacuum so that it is pulling evenly, all over the board. A lot of times as it starts to pull I’ll stop the pump, release the vac, and adjust the bag, pull out folds and creases, then put the vac back on. If the bag was set properly the rocker will be maintained. Once it’s all sucked down I check the rocker at nose and tail, and one foot marks. I’ll put blocks under and weights over if necessary. I bag the bottom skin first, the breather (bubble wrap) is on the deck. If you’re only doing a deck skin, it’ll be tricky to check the rocker because you’ll have the breather on the bottom. I used to put the breather on the side I was bagging, thinking it would insure a better pull, but it is impossible to see any bubbles or creases that form on the skin with the bubble wrap on top. With the breather on the other side you can monitor to skin and if you see creases or bubbles you can stop the pump and work them out, then pull vac again.
I have the board on the floor when I bag. You have to get down on the floor to check the rocker.
I think with just one layer of 4oz and veneer over orange poly you will still get denting.
ps I use slow epoxy to give me plenty of time to work. You have to leave it 4-8 hours under vac depending on temps. I also figure slow will give the epoxy more time to saturate the wood.
