Noserider basics for the concept challenged

General Discussion
1

 

After reviewing noserider shapes I come across a fundamental fork in the road.

Some shapes ( example Tyler riddler example, etreme, wide nose plane with deep concave) appear to float.

the alternative I am seeing is an airplane wing shape with curve over the top. Hydronamically creating lift by bernoulli principle. Flat bottom.

My conclusions are:

An airplane wing front end will only succeed when completely submerged. Bernoulli principle cannot not apply if the foil is planing, simply because water may or may not pass over the top of the foil.

A concaved mildly rockered front end will develop lift in all circumstances, and naturally slow the travel of the board.

Is there more to it? Should a noserider apply higher angle of attack to create lift through concavity? Stick a 45 ℅ in to flowing water it will lift… And slow…

A concave seems like a reversed bernoulli and therefore acceptable form of lift.

Ignore tail rocker and shape factors for simplicity, unless they make the difference here.

I would really like to understand this. If the airplane wing works, that’s cool too!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2

There is a lot of misunderstanding about what makes a good nose rider. This is a good introduction: http://noseriding.com/pages/TomWegenertalksWalkingonWater.htm

3

An airplane wing front end will only succeed when completely submerged.

Ever seen/ridden a Peck Penetrator? Thinking way back, seems to me all you need is some of inside nose rail in the water and you fly.

4

While the bernoulli principle works exactly as described, I can attest to the fact that a flat bottomed nose with pronounced down rail does indeed work as a noserider. That one feature by itself is not a cure all or magic ingredient and the rest of the shape needs to be conducive to tip riding. My favorite “noserider” is a mere 8’ long. I weigh about 145-150. It works as well, maybe even better than,  a 9’4" noserider I have which has the typical concave.

Wegener makes a good point about fins. Changing the fin makes a world of difference. One more reason to never do a glasson for a single fin LB.

5

The last 24 inches at the tail of the board is more important than the front 24 inches for noseriding.

6

I agree there is.

 

I’m curious, lets take Joel Tudor’s definition of ‘noseriding’ as basically putting some digits over the nose, and if not digits, some part of the foot. That leaves a lot of space (on a longboard at least) for walking around. So lets say some guy takes a couple steps forward, doesn’t make to the nose however, maybe a step back from it. My question is what changes in the (fundamental?) dynamics between where he is and if he took that step forward? (Is it just leverage?)

 

Or, are all those mechanisms that Tom Wegner suggests are in play only in play when ‘noseriding’ (using Tudor’s definition) or are they in play before you get to the ‘Tudor’ point -i.e. a little piggy hanging over the edge?

 

I guess the point that’s bothering me is the suggestion from my reading of Wegner’s piece is that there is something (possibly) fundamentally different going on during noseriding, and if there is, there would have to be a transition point between the something that was going on before and that which is going on after. In particular, as the surfer moves forward on the board there is a transition. (And if there is where is that point?)

 

Don’t get me wrong, I think Wegner’s take is interesting, but for one thing, I don’t think he accounts for the difference in deceleration along the wavefront as the wave is shoaling. The tail of the board if you tuck into into the curl region is actually experiencing a different flow  than the more forward region or nose region (see thread, “The Deceleration Wave-Form”)

 

Or consider this, a surfer can take a couple of steps forward on his longboard and be about as close to the nose as some other guy on a shortboard, who hasn’t moved in position since he stood up. What’s the difference in the (fundamental?) dynamics in this case?

 

Or. in the end, do you see it as all just a matter of leverage?

 

On leverage…

 

By the way, I can’t speak for anyone else, but in my opinion about the best fin (not including all those fins with wings etc. which I’ve never had much interest in) for nose riding was Weber’s Hachet fin – and the fact that it weighed a ton probably didn’t hurt.

 

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Small beside on the famous ‘spoon under the tap’ experiment.

 

Water is somewhat sticky, especially if it encounters or is flowing over a somewhat hydrophilic surface.

 

I suggest that next time you try the spoon experiment, if you are inclined, to watch the flow of water off the end of the spoon. Notice that its in the opposite direction than which the spoon moves (which is seemingly into the flow). The reason the spoon moves into the flow is because its motion counteracting the momentum flow off the tip. Think of this way, you’re on a skateboard and you’re stationary, and you throw a ball forward. The ball will move forward and you will tend to move backward. (Also notice that the ‘spoon’ effect doesn’t really change that much with the speed of the flow.)

 

Here’s a better experiment, take a piece of flexible plastic or foil or cardboard, bend it into a half pipe and put in under the flow (so the flow is along the long axis). It will move out of the flow. Conclusion: half-pipes create lift? Perhaps. But just about anything getting in the way of a flow will respond similarly. (Try one of those scoops they use for flour or sugar if you think the half-pipe is missing the point.)

 

I’m not sure why people refer to the spoon experiment as an illustration of Bernoulli’s principle. At least I don’t see it – Occam’s razor provides a much simpler explanation – just account for the momentum transfers.

 

 

7

 

Care to expound on that?

I’m curious as to what you think works, or doesn’t work, in that last 24"

 

8

There is a four part series on you tube by James Maclaren called the phisics of noseriding . 

9

I like a thin nose and a big tail kick in the rocker. I actually put a hard edge in the tail of mine and can still compete with the boys out here on Maui so its gotta work a little. I do a soft thin rail also. BTW my boards arent HPLB they look very traditional I am not a fan of  NEW longboarding.

10

Tail kick, rails and fin are the key.  Gotta go.

11

My understanding is that you use hard down rails up front with a flatter rocker and concave, and you use turned up or round rails in the tail with more rocker and a big fin. The nose will lift and run, but the tail is holding the board back so you can stay up on the nose longer. I’m not a fan of that style of surfing, so when I had a board with the round rails and kick in the tail, I didn’t like it. Looking back, I should have just spent more time trying to ride the nose instead of the tail like a short board.

12

Wow gbzausa, that’s 10+ mins I ain’t never getting back… some of the comments on the pages sum it nicely, like “utter crap”.  

13

True, it’s a 50 year old style of surfing. But, unless you’ve ridden a board with design elements from that era, you will miss the real feeling of nose-riding. I grew up surfing that style and then quit surfing for a long time. When I got back into it, I bought a '90s era longboard. It was a very different ride, but it was clear that something was missing in the nose-riding department.

The board just wouldn’t climb up the face and hang under lip the way I remembered. As Wegener described in the article, a modern longboard (although superior in many other ways) will nose-ride lower on face and less parallel to wave. The first thing I did was revert to a single fin, which immediately felt better.  Eventually, I got boards that had the feel I wanted.

The main thing is basically low rocker and round or egg rails and I think some roll/belly as opposed to flat bottom. I don’t believe that a wide nose, nose concave, tail kick or type of fin are essential ingredients, although each will change the overall feel to some degree.  Nowdays, there are many sources for boards that incorporate these features.