Hey…not to stir the debate about to concave or not…but for those of you who aren’t doing concaves, what do you like in the bottom? A little belly, flat bottom…? Wouldn’t belly in the nose make a it a little “slippery” (even if you get some chop cutting bennies) when noseriding? Alternatively, on a flat nose, I’d think you’d want to turn up the rails pretty high in the front 18 or so inches…Only shaped a few HP longboards, so noserider nuances are new ground for me. Thanks in advance for the ideas…
if no concave flat with chine
Wide, flat and thiiiiiiiiiiiin.
Howzit cberry, More kick in the tail makes for a good nose rider since it forces the tail down which raises the nose area.Aloha,Kokua
a thin, flat bottom, downrail nose – VERY fast when i’m on the tip. i sail right past sections without ever having to step back. LOVE IT!!!
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if no concave flat with chine
yep…thin , try to keep from sweeping it up too much…chine is a solid way to go
I’m with "soulstice’ on this one. Flat bottom, semi-hard downrail.
The first purpose-built noserider was the Con “wingtip”, which employed that same design.
Other boards that used it were the Blue Machine and Peck Penetrator, by Morey Pope.
I have had a mid-Sixties Gordon and Smith with a flat downrail nose, and currently own an 8’ noserider with that same design. The 8 footer nose rides better than many boards that are much longer. One advantage for the shaper, is that a flat bottom is much easier to do, than a concave.
A little extra tail kick never hurts, either.
The noseriders I’ve seen have a pretty flat nose rocker as well. Maybe some of the experts can verify but I’m thinking 4 1/2" or so. Much more than that and you’re looking at unintentional helicopters.
i used to be against concaves completely but my latest noserider has plenty of it and i have to tell you, for sloppy waves or ones that are a little mushy it is awesome. i havent noticed it getting in the way at all in very steep critical noserides, in fact it is just as fast as any other board i have surfed, but when the wave unexpectedly flattens out or in windy situations where you hit a flat spot, you can feel the lift keep you afloat for the extra 1/2 a second to either let you take a step back or to hang on till the wave steepens up again. this made me rethink longboard design. Watching myself i realized that on the nose, it is the rail line that is doing the most work up there not so much the bottom, atleast in critical sections. it isnt until the wave flattens out and the nose comes close to pearling that the surface area under the nose comes into contact with the water. Towards the tail i have a pronounced belly with the biggest fin i could get glassed on. And of course pinched round rails the whole way around.
that being said, all the others i have tried were flat bottoms in the nose.
I think its in your head as to what works and doesnt as far as nose bottoms go. just do round rails, round bottom, big fin, and heavy glass and youll be stoked.
all the previous comments have merit , but as usual it comes down to the type of waves …
soulstice and tenover kind of had similar thoughts , but that style of wide flat and thin is good when the waves roll and peel cleanly and evenly only dropping softer sections …
but if the waves are sectiony and have more pronounced differences between the power zone and the dead sections , then the flatter boards tend to rocket out onto the open face to quickly , making the walk back to the tail difficult because you are now out on the open face with no water on your tail to stabilize the board as you attempt to walk back , this also leaves the board unbalanced and nose heavy with the rider on it …
then of coarse if you need to quickly break a line while nose riding a section , the flatter boards have a tendancy to get stuck in the curved parts of the wave if you drop back in to aggressivley …
the board in the pic ive posted is far from a conventional noserider , in that it is designed to plane on top of the water having the rails designed for maximum release , the nose rocker compensates for the power , so as the wave backs off quickly ,the board will slow down and stay with the power zone , allowing the wave to roll over the deck and keep the tail down …
the high speed hold and control comes from the fins …
but again it is tuned to a particular type of wave …
my advice would be , check out the boards that the guys at your local wave are ripping on , the guys who seem to be doing stuff you would like to do but cant , see whats working for them …
and get that common denominator …
all the above comments have merit for certain condidtions …
so tuning to a style of wave will give you something that goes very well in some waves but pretty average in others …
see in this pic , its the nose slowing on the rocker , the reduction in speed means the wave has no choice but to throw onto the deck , stabilizing it , because at lower speeds the fins do less work , so another form of control needs to take there place …
in certain conditions , the above design gets really anoying , because it relys on power zones to give it squirts of speed , with the design allowing the rider control of that speed , if the power is not there ,its not a fun board to ride …
because you feel trapped in one place on the wave , thats when the style of board tenover and soulstice recomended come into there own and you get serious fun happening in really small waves …
also appart from static design , this particular board has a little more flex built in , this means at low speeds with the rider on the nose and the water on the tail , it flattens out and you stil get good carry in softer waves , this gives the board a slightly better range , but of coarse having static design tailored for the condidtions is still the first priority …
regards
BERT
I have a question regarding how nose concaves work. I am under the impression that concaves change the rocker-line between rail and stringer. In this first drawing, the rail line is in black, the stringer line in red. The concave works to flatten the rocker.
Sorry for the size of the drawing, but if we look at a nose concave, the nose kick could make a nose concave affect the rocker line in this way…
Do I have this right? If so, a nose concave could be increasing nose stringerline rocker earlier than the rail line. How does this help a noseride? I’m sure there are plenty of factors I am overlooking here, so that’s why I am asking…
I used to think that the way a concave flattens the rocker is important. Now I tend to think that its the sides of the concave and the way that they present themselves to the waterflow is what is important. - Angle of attack - The water pushes against the side of the concave giving lift. It is then re-directed out the middle of the concave.
Thanks for all the advice…nice to know there’s still so much debate and thought going into a fairly traditional design. I’m thinking mostly clean w-s high kinda mushy, but well shaped waves (south swell Pleasure Pt, specifically), …Most of the hot noseriders are riding the wide/thin/flat noses, but concaves are also fairly prevalent. I never would have thought of a down rail in the nose, but I guess that comes from a bias of trying to keep the nose from catching an edge riding more HP longboards.
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soulstice and tenover kind of had similar thoughts , but that style of wide flat and thin is good when the waves roll and peel cleanly and evenly only dropping softer sections …
but if the waves are sectiony and have more pronounced differences between the power zone and the dead sections , then the flatter boards tend to rocket out onto the open face to quickly , making the walk back to the tail difficult because you are now out on the open face with no water on your tail to stabilize the board as you attempt to walk back , this also leaves the board unbalanced and nose heavy with the rider on it …
then of coarse if you need to quickly break a line while nose riding a section , the flatter boards have a tendancy to get stuck in the curved parts of the wave if you drop back in to aggressivley …
the board in the pic ive posted is far from a conventional noserider , in that it is designed to plane on top of the water having the rails designed for maximum release , the nose rocker compensates for the power , so as the wave backs off quickly ,the board will slow down and stay with the power zone , allowing the wave to roll over the deck and keep the tail down …
howzit, bert…
you really hit the nail on the head! i only ride the board i was talking about above in a more mellow, rolling, glassy wave. when the swell has a little more punch, i break out my 9’1" pintail. it’s got a fairly deep teardrop nose concave, good tail kick, and is surprisingly lightweight…but it’s the rail profile that really brings it all together. when it’s breaking a little more hollow, i can land myself right in the pocket and noseride that thing for days!
here’s a pic of a trip to the tip:
it’s without a doubt the best all-around board i’ve ever ridden. had a great time with it in our last cold front swell of the season. about shoulder high, i locked in had a super long noseride – hang 5, hang 10, one foot…i was runnin’ outta stuff to do up there!. took me from one end of the lineup all the way down the beach, with longboarders and shortboarders alike (many of whom i had never seen before) all hootin’ and hollerin’ as i went flyin’ by.
mmmm…those are the days!
…if you arent fat, you dont even need a wide nose…
the first noseriders had narrow noses…
…the nose concave was marketing
…put lot of tail rocker and kick tail, big swap raked fin, the nose measurements and rails contours depends on the rider (biotype, skill) and waves (type -steep, toob, fat, rolled) and condition -clean, offshore always, mushy)
if you need to change the rails often, put a hip
straight the tail
flat bottom or slightly rolled from the middle to tail
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…if you arent fat, you dont even need a wide nose…
the first noseriders had narrow noses…
yep thats another option , but it leans toward more down the line waves , where you dont have a defined section for the opportunity to run up to the tip , because you can turn it abruptly head towards the lip on a fast wave and virtualy create your own opportunity to make a run for the nose …
you can still nose ride a narrow nose , but to compensate the rocker needs to be reduced , so it has carry , plus you have to avoid the softer front rail . because the nose is narrower , it will automatically allow water onto the deck from further up the front , if the rail is to soft forward it allows the water onto the deck to early and tends to suck to nose down (not good if your area is reduced ) so the harder nose rail with the finer rail that slices is the call …
plus you do need that monster fin in the tail , because the extra outline curve will make it want to turn from the nose easier , but also with a tendancy to spin out , so the fin will keep the tail where its supposed to be …
theres that saying , many ways to skin a cat …
my preference for design is to gain the most and lose the least …
having a nose rider that you can hang on all day long , but still belt the lip or even boost if the opportunity allows …
im with tenover & soulstice on the wide and thin , flat bottom , but also with enough rocker to keep the nose out the way on belts and reos , the reduced volume and flex , gives it nose ride ability as it flattens out during nose rides …
so you actually get a good package all round …
but it does lean towards needing to use flex to get a fuller range out of one board …
probably gonna sound like a marketing blurb , but if you get your flex right then you can really increase the range of what your board can do …
to thin on traditional contruction and you get a rubber feel , so again its a materials thing to …
im actually looking forward to making a few new boards , havent had a new longboard in over 2 years , while i was working in the salt mines …
regards
BERT
What’s everyone’s take on nose channels? Marketing or science?
JSS
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What’s everyone’s take on nose channels? Marketing or science?
JSS
just an alternative – maximize directional control from the nose while minimizing the stall/drag created by a traditional nose concave. then again, some people like the stall created by a deep dish nose concave. nothing wrong with harbour’s nose channels, though…i like 'em on my funky mid-length boards (like “the shlongboard”).
i like belly in the nose. it sets a line nice and deep and doesn’t budge much when on the snout. Lets you hang out.
…well, I see in those pict the wide nose area. I understand your point
but like you say, you have flex and a controlled one in your type of building…
so, its possible that you dont have any problems with that big noses
yes, avoid soft nose rail and put a big fin
I did some 9 - 9 2 performers with very narrow noses (14.5) that go fair for noseriding, good for all around and very good for steep waves down the lines to top action and toobs
for me those wider noses only rides good in fat small surf, if not start to dig the rails and loose all other type of action
may be is that my idea for design is small everything as possible
–maxmercy
I dont have a valid opinion about nose channels yet
I need more experience with that feature