Noseriders and Pigs - Round Rails or Knifey Rails?

Hi All,

 

Been a long time ghost here first time posting.

I'm about to build a DNN nose rider shape. 

 

I've seen some interpretations of that board which have pretty round rails (like the Tudor one) and some which have much knifier rails. In a similar space I can see some of the Gato Heroi boards have pretty knifey rails and some have rounder rails. The Cooper FlexPig looks like it has pretty knifey rails.

So the question is - round rails and knifey rails  -  what are the good and bad things about both? What kind of condtions do they each ride better? Why would you choose one or the other?

 

Assuming we're talking about old school nose-riding longboards and pigs and the like.

 

All thoughts much appreciated.

 

Thanks

Eithor or. They both work. Neither of them will make you a noserider.

My experience is similar to cleanlines’… the rail alone does not make a good noserider; it’s the rail in combination with bottom and rocker. Personally, the shape of the rail on a noserider determines how the board has to be turned, rather than how well it noserides. I seem to be able to use more rail with a fuller, rounder rail, and do more of a pivot turn (lifting the nose up, pivoting, then putting it down) on a board with more knifey rails.

Overall, pigs don’t make good noseriders due to their volume distribution versus a dedicated noseriding LB.  Rail design and fins are last on the list for a noserider shape. There’s another thread about rockers that you should also read since it deals with the rocker relationship to bottom contours.    Very knifey 50/50 rails on the old pigs were mainly used for their side slipping ability.  They’re loose and release water fast.  The drawback was sharp bottom turns; you couldn’t lean into it without eating crap 90% of the time.  Had to go to the tail, drop a knee and pivot the thing into a bottom turn.  The somewhat knifey rails I see on contemporary pigs address this by a big tail Vee, but riders tell me that the bottom turns are still not as good as with a fuller rail.   If you want just to noseride, make a dedicated one rather than wresting with a pig outline to do this.  If you want a pig and just do an occasional noseride when the opportunity presents itself, I would add a bit more tail rocker and a little fuller rail than “knifey”.   My oldest son rides only vintage pigs and claims that it’s all about the challenge to do things like ten over and heels noserides on them.  This supposedly separates the riders of the new resurrected pigs from the rest of the pack in the lineup and shows an attitude.   Well,  they never suffered through the time when pigs were all there was. 

These are all very good points, listen to them. I have a '63 pig and it’s exactly how petec describes: mine was a ton of fun on the tail (loose), but I could only noseride when the situation was perfect for it. I had to line up the board on the wave with the tail and then run for the nose.

Interesting stuff.

In the light of whats been said I think I’ll keep the rails fairly full on this one then.

Thanks very much all.

 

 

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Another reason for the fuller 50/50 rail at the tail of a nose rider is to slow it down once the rail in set in the face.  

This is all Tom Wegener, not me. The whole article is here:http://www.noseriding.com/pages/TomWegenertalksWalkingonWater.htm

All of it is worth the read.

 

"**1.) The Modern Longboard **

 

The modern longboard is characterized by having a flatter bottom, a hard edge through the tail, a wide nose for noseriding, lots of rocker, and a light glass job. They are easy to noseride and hang ten, but they noseride best out on the shoulder and in soft sections. When on the nose, the board points about 45 degrees towards the shore.

 

The modern board will hang ten because the thickness and width of the nose provide floatation and planing area and the soft rails from nose to midsection suck water onto the deck. This stabilizes the board within the wave and counter balances the person on the nose. This is a stable situation until the wave becomes too steep. As the wave gets steeper the board will become more parallel with the wave and speed up. As the board speeds up it begins planing on top of the water and the tail will not suck water onto the deck. Due to the hard rails through the tail and the flat bottom, there is no curve to suck the board to the wave. The rider must back pedal off the nose or else the board will literally fall out of the face of the wave

 

The modern longboard will not noseride on a steep face because most of the board is geared toward releasing water and planing. Its speed is generated by planing down the surface of a steep wave. The board is designed to be smashing the lip on a steep wave and not hanging ten

 

**2.) The Potato Chip **

 

In the late 1990s, the ‘knifey-railed potato chips of the late 1960s were popular at the ‘Old Mal Rallies.’ Guys like Chris De Aboitz, Gareth Donovan and Ian Williams rip on them. They’re characterized by thin rails, medium rocker and roll through the bottom and a single fin. They will nosreide much closer to the pocket than the modern longboard and they will go a long way before spinning out. One characteristic is that in a solid ten pose, the tail and fin will often be hanging out the back of the wave.

 

The roll thorugh the bottom of the board sucks the board into the wave. The knifey, less buoyant rails easily cut into the wave and water is still sucked over the rail. Most of the board is truly within the wave in the hang ten position. Due to the rocker in the board and the suction, the board points toward the sore at about 35 degrees. The rail and the fin will pop out the back of the wave because the board is not parallel with the wave; besides, the wave is not as thick in the pocket as compared to the shoulder where the modern longboard noserides. When the board is in perfect trim and the rider is hanging ten, the curves working with the buoyance will leave the fin and tail high and dry out the back of the wave.

 

**3.) The Soft-Railer **

 

The soft-railer is characterized by the rounded rails, flatter rocker—except for lift in the tail, heavier in weight, hips towards the tail and a big single fin. Although this board has been mocked for over 30 years, it will do one thing clearly better than any other surfboard, it will hang ten beautifully and confidently in perfect, spinning, small surf.

 

Where the progressive flat bottom, light board gets its speed from the steepness of the wave and planning, the soft-railer gets its **speed from tensions pushing ** against the board from within the wave. The wave wants to push the board towards shore, while the fin fights the wave and holds the board in the wave. This tension pushes the board through the water and across the wave. Soft-railers go through the water, while modern boards skim on top of the water. (Of course, each and every board moves because of a bit of each of these principals, but planning vs. displacement hulls is an accurate way to think about longboard design.)

 

**A big fin creates more tension ** and thus more speed. A big, thick fin works best. (It takes a big wave before the fin will create more drag than speed.) The size of the fin has little if anything to do with the looseness of the soft-railer. It is all about fin placement, foil and tail design.

 

Having hips towards the tail is the key to the ultimate noserider. The hips make the board ride more parallel to the wave. When you are on the nose where the boards is, say, 18 incheswide, while it is 23 inches in the hips, the attitude of the board will be more parallel with the wave thus making you travel faster across the wave. The flatter or straighter the board, the more parallel it can ride. With more width and foam in the back half of the board, there is more flotation and volume. **This mass creates more tension ** with the fin and makes the board go faster. Also, it counters the suction created by the soft rails and lift in the tail.

 

With
a properly balanced soft-railer, the elements for the hang ten are in the tail.
As the board speeds up across the wave, the tail will suck into the wave and
the nose will begin to lift up. Even while hanging ten the board will accelerate,
climb in the wave and become more stable. This is how some people are seen hanging
ten in such critical sections, where the front third of the board is out of
the water while the rider is calm, poised, and in complete control."

 

Post pics of whatever you decide.

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