Hi Gents - I’ve heard mentioned but don’t understand how tail kick helps noseriding and if it does then reverse rocker would be a favorable characteristic in a noserider correct?
Also - Do any of you longboard fans out there prefer thicker noses? I’ve put a considerable amount of volume in the nose of
my newly shaped 9’6" and noticed it much easyier to noseride. Just curious cause I see alot of realy wafer thin longboards in the water.
Cheers!
Noseriding has a number of things going on. In no particular order…
A wide nose generates lift. (I doubt that concave helps much except look cool, but others will disagree).
Tail rocker generates lift. The water “wants” to flow straight off the bottom but follows the tail instead. If the tail curves up, it exerts a force on the water (lifts the water up) and “sucks” the tail down; in turn this lifts the nose. A highly simplified explanation.
Position of the board. If you’ve seen a toes-on-the-nose shot from above, the entire board is in the water, with the tail sometimes hanging out the back of the wave. I got ten for a bit once on my 5’4", at the time I weighed maybe 175. Well this wasn’t really skill, but positioning… I was stalling out otherwise, stepped up and barely got back into the wave.
Skill of the rider has more to do with noseriding than anything else.
Here’s another simplified concept: boards “work” in two modes, displacement and planing. I think you can grok that without a studious explanation. When you’re in displacement mode, such as sitting or paddling, board volume is all. Get moving on a wave (planing) and then surface area, speed and presentation of the board to the flow of water (angle of attack) is what matters. Planshape and fin placement matter when planing too…
Just to add to Charlie’s explanation.
This is good reading.
As it’s been stated already, this is a complicated subject… I like to think there are two kinds of noseriding senarios - one when your trimming (planing) and one where you are stalling.
When the wave is slow and mushy, your stalling, and a little extra volume is good. Many times this is when you’re between sections or right after the takeoff, and you’re going more perpendicular to the wave face… kooking it almost straight toward the beach, waiting for the next section to form down the line. If you like concaves, this is when they work, IMHO. Slow moving water is deflected downward at the back of the concave, lifting the nose.
When the wave is steep and fast, your trimming along and extra nose volume is not ideal, particularly along the rail. Here’s where tail rocker is doing the sucking, and your thinned out noserail is slicing into in the face of the wave, with the rest of the rail buried… water wrapping around a no-edge rail and holding it in.
You can compromise both by starting with a bit move volume in the nose, and adding some concave, but then put a bit of chine or bevel in the noserail. This thins out the entry part of the rail (sort of creating a pinched rail), but then the volume quickly increases as you move inward, toward the edge of the concave.
So if you surf in mushy waves most of the time, some concave and some extra volume is good. If you surf in peeling point waves or dumpy little beachbreaks, you might want to go with less volume.
off topic but i’ve ridden this board. it’s lotsa fun. not a noserider obviously but a privilege to ride.
Just to add to Charlie’s explanation.
This is good reading.
that link… “a-ha”
Okay I probably should have stated that I usually surf in slow mushy waves which after reading your feedback explains why my new longboard with extra volume in the nose seems to work better. If I’m understanding things correctly, a more significant amount of tail kick should pair with a knify’r nose profile. Faster wave = tail kick sucking = less need for flotation in the nose. Together with a pinched rail should equal a great longboard for my local breaks. I gotta tell ya, All these little lessons learned on Swaylocks has doubled my fun factor in the water. I wish every surfer knew how important it is to have the right equipment for a perticular wave type. It’s humorous to watch people spend 6,7,8,$900 on a board cause it is what they see the pros riding in perfect waves.
Cheers!
Okay I probably should have stated that I usually surf in slow mushy waves which after reading your feedback explains why my new longboard with extra volume in the nose seems to work better. If I’m understanding things correctly, a more significant amount of tail kick should pair with a knify’r nose profile. Faster wave = tail kick sucking = less need for flotation in the nose. Together with a pinched rail should equal a great longboard for my local breaks. I gotta tell ya, All these little lessons learned on Swaylocks has doubled my fun factor in the water. I wish every surfer knew how important it is to have the right equipment for a perticular wave type. It’s humorous to watch people spend 6,7,8,$900 on a board cause it is what they see the pros riding in perfect waves.
Cheers!
Hey Surfdad, please tell me where I can buy one of those $600 boards that your talking about. Your right if you read what these guys have to say your going to learn a lot about the art and love of surfing and surfboards. The kick in the tail of a nose rider is also called a drag tail, I have had boards with so much kick in the tail I could feel it when paddling the board. But I believe that it is the flow of the water over the deck of the tail that causes the tail to push down and causes the nose to lift up, as apposed to the kick on the bottom causing the tail to suck down. I could be wrong on this so I would like to hear some more on that, from you guys out there.
I like really thin tails and really soft rails just for that reason… lots of water rolling over the rail and onto the tail.
I also learned from an expert local shaper here, who’s boards I’ve ridden for more than a decade, a little trick… concave the deck of the tail to hold water. Mine go like this: start fading in the concave 7" up from the tail, making it progressively deeper and reaching max depth about 2 1/2" from the edge. Then bring the deckside of the tail rails down to rapidly decrease the depth of the concave until it’s flat at the end. You just have to be awar of how thin you make it so you have enough volume there for the box.
Another trick that works for me: 3" to 3 1/2" tailblocks made with heavy wood… no pine, balsa, etc. I know I’m probably going to get blasted for this one, but the heavier the better… acts like a cantilever. This also helps make pivot type turns easier. But if you do a rail turn, you need to compensate by shifting your weight a bit more forward. Combined with adequate rocker in the back third, accelerating through the tail, this setup works beautifuly.
I’m totally diggin the idea of a deckside concave in the tail! Thanks for the tip NJS. It’s going in my next project.
VB small mushy waves =
9’6" x 23" x 3"
Square tail
Good amount of volume in the nose. Flat though to mantain planing speed.
50/50 pinched rails for suck and drag.
Reverse rocker, just a tad nose entry with just a bit more in the tail.
Nice heavy 10/6/10 volan glass job for momentum.
Is this an accurate explanation for a noserider to be surfed in pretty slow mushy east coast waves?
I believe that it is the flow of the water over the deck of the tail that causes the tail to push down and causes the nose to lift up, as apposed to the kick on the bottom causing the tail to suck down. I could be wrong on this so I would like to hear some more on that, from you guys out there.
I think in airplane wing, top surface is more curved so air must travel further so same volume of air is spread out “thinner” and applies less pressure than the air going under. Hence lift. Kicked tail; bottom surface water must travel further so spread thinner so makes less pressure on bottom of board. Hence “lift” in downward direction lifting nose.
Quote:I believe that it is the flow of the water over the deck of the tail that causes the tail to push down and causes the nose to lift up, as apposed to the kick on the bottom causing the tail to suck down. I could be wrong on this so I would like to hear some more on that, from you guys out there.
I think in airplane wing, top surface is more curved so air must travel further so same volume of air is spread out “thinner” and applies less pressure than the air going under. Hence lift. Kicked tail; bottom surface water must travel further so spread thinner so makes less pressure on bottom of board. Hence “lift” in downward direction lifting nose.
In order for this to make sence to me you are going to have to explane why NYsurfers idea of a step/concave in the tail on the deck works. I have all of my nose riders made like that, concave on the deck on the tail. Makes for a good nose rider that also paddles well.
I think maybe the main deal, at least surfboard wise, is the increased distance traveled by the water under the kicked tail as really I don’t think the mid part of the deck back there has that much water interaction even if it looks “underwater” though I could be wrong on that part. But anyway, just the water traveling faster over longer distance reduces its pressure/density/lift against the bottom of the tail which in effect is the same as pulling it down a bit. The there is the bit about generating some turbulence and drag which slows the board holding you in the spot longer
Hey SurfDad,
I am also a VB surfer. I was just noticing Sunday when putting my LB back in the garage that both the nose and the tails on both mine and my daughters nose riders are rather thick compared to what I normally see strapped to peoples roofs around here. Both are WRVs shaped by Mike Doyle. I do have some problems getting all the way out to the nose but think that is partly 'cause my board is only 9 foot and partly 'cause I have a cutaway fin. It does paddle and carry flat sections really well though. Might be some swell showing up starting Thursday, hope you catch a few.
I think maybe the main deal, at least surfboard wise, is the increased distance traveled by the water under the kicked tail as really I don’t think the mid part of the deck back there has that much water interaction even if it looks “underwater” though I could be wrong on that part. But anyway, just the water traveling faster over longer distance reduces its pressure/density/lift against the bottom of the tail which in effect is the same as pulling it down a bit. The there is the bit about generating some turbulence and drag which slows the board holding you in the spot longer
So DrStrange, I have does more research on this and now have to agree with you. It is mostly the low pressure under the board that causes the tail to suck down, you are also getting some off the deck but most of it is from the bottom. Live and learn. Thanks for making me research this subject. Bagman
I think in airplane wing, top surface is more curved so air must travel further so same volume of air is spread out "thinner" and applies less pressure than the air going under. Hence lift. Kicked tail; bottom surface water must travel further so spread thinner so makes less pressure on bottom of board. Hence "lift" in downward direction lifting nose.
The whole airplane comparison makes no sense to me, air and water are so different in density im not sure the same theories can even be applied. I don’t believe a surfboard even causes water to be pressurized, I always thought of a concave tail as a way to keep it up higher in the wave and act like a fulcrum.
Quote:I think in airplane wing, top surface is more curved so air must travel further so same volume of air is spread out "thinner" and applies less pressure than the air going under. Hence lift. Kicked tail; bottom surface water must travel further so spread thinner so makes less pressure on bottom of board. Hence "lift" in downward direction lifting nose.The whole airplane comparison makes no sense to me, air and water are so different in density im not sure the same theories can even be applied. I don’t believe a surfboard even causes water to be pressurized, I always thought of a concave tail as a way to keep it up higher in the wave and act like a fulcrum.
You are right that water can’t really compress. At least not much! Since something has to give, the lack of compression is lift ie instead of water being pushed down, board gets pushed up. That is the fulcrum you are referring to. At least I think so.
Maybe I’m mistaken but it’s not the water moving across the nose that causes lift it’s the air as you plane across the face of the wave. You have air that you’re moving into plus the air coming up the face of the wave.
I’ve heard some folks say they don’t like kick tails on their longboards because it causes drag when their paddling. That I can’t understand since I don’t think you’re moving that fast when paddling to have the kick make any difference. However, when you’re up riding the board I do feel it does cause drag and aides in nose riding. I was surfing Warm Waters a few months ago on my Blue Max, which is a kick tail/wing nose board, and for the first time got into a long wall (on that board). I was held so high up in the wave it was like standing on the edge of a 10 meter diving platform. The board was so locked in up there in the curl it was freaking exhilarating.
The board was so locked in up there in the curl it was freaking exhilarating.
