i assume they are just to give the option of 2/3/4 setup? or is he up to something new?
just had to ask, to be sure i am not crazy(which my wife assures me i am…)
Here is what greg said on the Surfermag BB.
“There are many differences between the 4 and 5-fin set ups. To get the drive and large “sweet” spot of a thruster i size and place the rear fin so its really active but still easy to push around. The 5-fin takes some of the rail fin area and puts it into a center fin . This makes the board less resistant to getting over on rail because you are not fighting the big fin on the rail to do this. The three small fins spread across the tail give a really smooth lifting feeling, with a drive that really ramps up as the wave gets better.Theres lots more but that will come later when i get my wesite.”
They are very complicated in their approach to solve the problem of the back fin but talk to Greg and he’ll explain it like no one else can.
Basically taking the overall volume of the back fin dividing it somewhat in three and pushing more of the fin volume out to the rails to tap into the energy along the side wall where the rail is engaged and where most of the “juice” in the wave/board relationship is happening.
Jobson is doing something similar with his twinzer but Greg’s boards ride more like a conventional board where as the twinzer rides more like a twin. I think Greg says something to the effect that the twinzer/quad is a twin on steroids while his 5-fin rides like a thruster on steroids.
The relationship between the outline, rails, rocker, position of the fin and more importantly design of the fin is critical in making all this to work right which is why Greg designs all his fins for whatever result he’s trying to achieve.
My friend has been riding a 5 fin fish for some time, loves it and rips with it. I’ve even seen T&C Owner Craig Sugihara rip some nice lines for a 50+ year old guy in some Ewa Beach mush with a 5-fin Pang copy. But more importantly Greg let us a demo 5’10" to find out for ourselves. I just knew something was up when I saw them in action like I did when I saw the guys going mach 10 on a Gemini in my home break, but riding one really backed up what we were hoping for. You don’t draw single fin lines with them like a fish but pump them like a thruster off your back foot. Every pump loosens up the board and accelerates the forward motion. High speed turbo on and off switch and no lack of control. The two exact combinations you need for Hawaii. The sad part is that these designs are like 10 years old and don’t get any of the respect like they should. Just like CMPs wood lam work doesn’t unless you’ve met him and seen his work in person.
How good are they…
Well after meeting Greg and talking with him about design and then riding his 5-fin, my brother and I decided to immediately order 2 boards each from him and quit making our own junk. That’s how much of an impact it was…
For some of you retro joes, it’d be like having Dave Parmenter as your own personal shaper like some of us here have going on.
The production surfboard business has really ruined the hopes and dreams of guys who could’ve advanced the sport with their ideas eons ago. Griff, Loehr, Bert, McCoy and others know it first hand all to well. If you can get all the boards you need from guys like this, you have to be a completely self centered idiot to think you’re going to make something better design wise. Alot of us who played here for a while and can see past our egos I think have come to realize this.
Building your own is great but to think your gonna be the next Phillips, Griffin, Loehr or Burger by just going to some website and not paying your dues working your way up through the process they went through. You’re dreaming a silly dream.
Young folks here that pimped their way to what they think is the next level are going to learn the same hard lessons over time that that all those that they should really be mentoring with did many years ago…
sorry just my take on the scene
but Griff’s 5-fins rock
I wish him the best as I do Bert
hey oneula,
thanks for the feedback on this design. i, obviously, had no idea about it, and assumed it was to allow options. but, i think i understand the ideas, as you explained them.
i would have though there was more drag with all the fin area? i understand, to a degree, the twinzer dynamics, and this 5 fin is very intriguing, for sure.
" you have to be a completely self centered idiot to think you’re going to make something better design wise. Alot of us who played here for a while and can see past our egos I think have come to realize this.
Building your own is great but to think your gonna be the next Phillips, Griffin, Loehr or Burger by just going to some website and not paying your dues working your way up through the process they went through. You’re dreaming a silly dream.
Young folks here that pimped their way to what they think is the next level are going to learn the same hard lessons over time that that all those that they should really be mentoring with did many years ago… "
as you say, i am not going to try to duplicate it, as i have my own ideas to work out, but i do think it is unfair for you to say that a small builder can’t influence our sport. that’s a rather defeat-ist attitude don’t you think? don’t take that the wrong way, as i have/do in fact work in the industry(albeit have plenty to learn - as we all do) and agree that the market is changing, or has changed making business difficult. add to that the fact that most people simply won’t try anything that isn’t fashionable, or what the pros are seen riding. i still believe that there is hope for a small builder to make some changes, or created something valid to advance our sport. that’s how all these guys did it, right?
i also agree with you that the best way to learn is a sort of apprenticeship, or working in a shop, bottom up. the sad thing is that with the market the way it is, there isn’t that kind of opportunity available per se. personally, i am grateful for the time i had at channin, and here in brazil at ccl, but while working in both places i also saw boards made by small guys that were excellent, who didn’t have the chance to work in a shop(because they had other bills to pay.)
i think swaylocks is great. i have learned loads here, and hopefully have passed on some good advice in my turn. i have no delusions that i willbe the next brewer, pavel, frye, or campbell, but as long as the people who buy from me are happy, and stoked, where’s the harm in that?
ah this is material for a different thread hey?
anyway, thanks for the feedback, i sincerely appreciate it. and, if i am ever lucky enough to see one in person, i look forward to riding it. i have been stoked by griffin’s designs, and was suprised to not see anything here about this fish(as everyone here is making quans - i mean quads) before.
regards,
yea I apologize for the severeness of the statement.
Just hard watching all the sensei shapers go by the wayside while young upstarts trying to pinch off a piece of the fame and fortune pie. Alot of the olf timers aren’t ruthless hardcore business guys which is why is sad to see the likes of them suffer while the money mongers hog the pie for their 15 minutes of fame…Ever wonder why the elimination of close tolerant blanks spooked the industry… The old guys were laughing… I think the statement coming from them was “hey, just learn to really shape a board”.
Sways is great but it isn’t going to take the place of spending a week or months or years tutoring with guys like Jim Phillips or Griffin or Rich Harbour etc etc…
The internet has made things artificially easy to copy (ever wonder why Bert’s gone silent now?)
But there’s still a thing called paying your dues.
I think if you have the gumption to do this, you’ll earn your respect the old fashion way and your light will burn bright for many eions. If you don’t then sooner or later you stock will blow up and fall apart like everything else that’s been hyped on the net only to be epxosed by the truth sometime later. And there is always a “later” if you accept that fact or not. You can run but you can’t hde from it as it’ll get you somehow when it finds you…
Again sorry if I offended you it was meant to get people to think a little about what’s happening now…
an alternate version of the grass mowing alert.
Again the design isn’t new but it works…
Those that get one will understand what I’m saying
those that don’t won’t
goes for alot of things including RR epoxy and eps
…man, cool your jets…
…there re no elimination of close tolerance blanks!! the world is not only USA (much less Hawaii)…so check it out…
hey oneula,
you know, i think we are actually on the same side here. and, don’t worry, there was never any offense taken.
"Sways is great but it isn’t going to take the place of spending a week or months or years tutoring with guys like Jim Phillips or Griffin or Rich Harbour etc etc…
The internet has made things artificially easy to copy (ever wonder why Bert’s gone silent now?)
But there’s still a thing called paying your dues."
I couldn’t agree with you more on this point. in fact, that is what i meant about bloody everbody making quan copies…with not so much as a nod to pavel, all credited to mandala/lost/hobie/etc. anyway, nothing is sacred right?
my point about the privilege of working in a real shop is basically the same idea you are trying to express. i consider myself extremely lucky to have been able to talk with legends, but also work finishing their boards. unfortunately, and as you commented on the masters falling away, there aren’t those same opportunities available. a very sad time in our history indeed…
you can still earn your following, and pay your dues by honing you skills, and doing r & d on your own, a la greenough(not that i would consider myself the same legue) right? maybe that is where the next leap will come from? who knows.
hey, thanks for the kick in the ass, and seriously, no offense taken.
Oneula has knowledge of things that are being done in the industry over here that border on pure evil, and he’s doing pretty good not saying much. In the 80’s i created and refined several non thruster designs one is the 5-fin ,Dane Kealoha rode it then , Russ K. and Dino Miranda both world champ longboarders rode it in the 90’s. And now its back again but really was never gone.I am starting my own label and have already had great resposnse from independent shops and surfers looking for boards built at a higher level. Bernie and his brother will be getting their new boards in 2 weeks and they will be amazed at how well they work.The local surfer bernie spoke of riding the 5-fin has riden them for 3 decades. I have a twin and 4-fin that have thruster like drive and ease of use as well.All the boards i make will have the fins tuned to each board before it goes to the customer by myself. I will also offer custom G-10 fins made by myself for the boards for the highest level of perfomance . This is what bernie rode and is what i am giving him on his new board.I am still shaping for T&C and will continue to promote what i make there as well as under my own label.
I rode Griff’s 5fin fish and it was an eye opener. It was only 5’10" and I’ve been riding 8’ boards lately so I didn’t know how well it would work. Griff said to pump it a couple of times to get it going and that’s all it took. It didn’t feel like a fish at all, it turned really solid. It didn’t spin turn like a fish, it had more drive like a thruster, but since it was so short, I could throw it around where I wanted. I was also able to ride through the flat sections of little waves that I never thought the board would be able to make. Griffin’s got the right combination of rocker, rails, and fins on these boards.
We ordered slightly larger boards (6’ 0" fish for me), and I can’t wait until we get them into a solid summer swell. I plan on letting all my friends try them and see for themselves. I think they’ll get over the number of fins once they try it.
When Oneula and I saw griffin and talked to him about the boards he makes, we knew that there was a lot more going on than we’re going to be able to do for some time. A lot of that has to do with the raw materials we use, the location of our work area and the time we have to spend doing it. I don’t think anyone would be able to comprehend what we do or even why, but it’s been fun. That’s all I ever expected it to be, having a good time making boards with my brother. I think we’re going to have a lot more fun riding really good progressive boards for a while.
hello mr griffin,
thanks for your post, am glad to hear from the original creator. i am really intrigued by the ideas behind it. with so much emphasis on quad fishes lately, it’s great to see something new(well, you know what i mean.)
i wish i was close enough to see one in person, as they look fantastic on the web. oneula has said that it is the same concept as the twinzer in that you are using the extra rail fin to tap into the energy along the rails. is this accurate?
if you don’t want to discuss it on a public forum, i respect that. just wondering about the design idea.
thanks again for your reply.
Oneula,
severe statement yes, but I’m with you. NOTHING beats hands on experience in any craft, and you can’t argue with the creative output of guys like Greg. In defense of the internet though, it’s let me see Greg’s boards, become interested and have the basic concept explained simply. Then, the true beauty of Sways- someone with experience of the board and genuine excitement about it explains how it rides. I’m no surfboard builder but I sure understand fast and holds in better than a twinnie. Now I have a whole new board concept to mull over while I deal with a miserable rainy day at work. More power to you for being up front with the cash to support Greg’s work. Keep us posted
Just in case you missed some of these boards he put up lately at surfermag:
The second one, if you read through it, has some of his input on the five fin design and some riders feedback as well.
Sounds like sweet boards.
Hi all,
I’m one of the “self centered idiots.” I say this with humor and don’t take it as an insult. Surfing is a pretty self centered activity. Who do you surf for? I surf for me. I build boards for me(and a few friends) and have no professional board building aspirations. I’m not a young guy either. I know my boards are not as good as a professional. I could probably afford a board from any builder on the planet. But, I’m stoked to be riding a board I built with my own hands. That is the ONLY reason I play on Swaylock’s. Reviews of pro model and such I find boring unless it’s something I would like to try and build myself(more self-centeredness). I do believe in SHARING THE STOKE though and that’s why I post what little information I have to share and don’t just lurk. The Internet is good for accessing information. There is no substutute for hands on learning from a qualified teacher in any craft. Mike
Amen, brother Mike. We’re drinking the same kool-aid.
just to put our experience with Griff’s board in perspective…
I have a custom Manolo Quad
I have a custom Alexander Gemini
I have a McCoy Nugget (off the rack)
I have a Parmenter Malolo beveled rail fish (used custom)
I have a Ricky Carroll Cheyne Horan (off the rack-thanks Solo!)
I have a Merrick Flyer (off the rack)
I have a Richardson Surflight (off the rack)
I had Parmenter StubbVectors (off the rack)
Also a ton of longboards and our home made balsa compsandos including the solid perimeter rail stuff(no Berts though).
So my brother and my experience in reporting back how Griff’s 5-fin rides like is based off of riding a wide variety different design approaches in semi decent to real bad southshore waves the kind of surf you are most likely to see everyday… We’re lucky because within 5-10 mnutes of our house we have a wide variety of breaks to play around in. My friend rides them on the northshore and in the same Ewa Beach junk I do so that says something as well. My brother will be testing his in the pristine glassy waves of Courts and Diamondhead.
As with alot of these designs I have above, looks can be real deceiving.
The big butt and round bottoms of the McCoy’s and Carrolls make them seem like they’d be dogs but they’re loose and they ride unbelkievably good when the walls get vertical versus slopey. They love sitting in the tube and going backside.
The surflights look slow and spongy but they too tap into another gear the more critical the wave gets. Very smooth
The Gemini looks just plain stupid with it’s double noses but fronthand it’s nothing but pure afterburner speed and railroad stickiness with the quads and narrow tail. Back hand it’s the fish problem…
When you look at the extra fins on Griff’s boards it looks like it’ll be slow and have alot of drag. But when you ride them you don’t feel the extra fins in fact the board paddles and just feels faster through the water like you’d feel with a twin. But when they engage you definitely know you have an extra fin in the back. Again no staged high speed cutback mind surfing.
In comparison I would say Griff’s 5-fin fish paddles and get into waves early like my Mandala, kicks in the afterburners when the going gets tough like my Gemini, but provides that secure incontrol feeling of any normal ultra high performance narrow thruster you’d ride in really good waves. I think that’s the key difference between Griff’s multi finned boards and the rest of the twin/quad/twinzer stuff out there today… You don’t need to make any adjustments from how you’d ride your regular performance thrusters other than you end up with a bunch of extra gears to power through when you need them…
I can’t say the same for any of the other alternative designs we’ve tried as there always seems to be some type of compromise in your technique or style to make them work their best.
And again this is a 15+ year old design that was thrown to the wayside to make room for todays potato chip two heat concave wonders…
Hope this helps
we’re not trying to say anything special here as what we like may not be your cup of tea.
I any case if you want to learn more PM or call Greg directly and then sit back and make your own judgements on the design.
I’m sure there’s many more “undiscovered” jewels out there that being overlooked by this media driven industry.
Just go talk to your favorite shaper and find out what designs they’ve been dreaming about all these years but could never get the “yo dude” folks to accept…
It’s amazing the discovery process…
I live on Long Island there are about 3-4 good shapers here, so this is about as much of an apprenticeship in board building that I have for now… Not all of us are in Hawaii, being a surfer in Hawaii is like being a gambler in Vegas, you can’t beat it. But for some of us we make do with what we have, there are not many “legends” around to learn from. It’s cool to talk to some here and pick there brains a little. However, if everyone had the same mentality as “hey, I can’t make a board as good as the gurus or legends so I should stop building and buy one” then no advancement could happen… Shaping is an art to me. Just because you’re an artist doesn’t mean you can’t admire some one else’s work; we all have to have something to aspire too…
One another note, CMP and Griffin should get together and make some 5 fin, tow-in, balsa lammed boards, I would love to see that…
Griffin, Good luck with the new label, the new logo is sick too…
hey surfstar(great name btw)
thanks for the links. i admittedly haven’t been over to surfer for a while, but will definitely check it out.
regards.
thanks to all who are commenting on the apprenticeship thoughts vs building your own. but, maybe i should have started that in a different thread before it got too popular?
anyone else ridden a 5 fin? thanks.
or is that being self centered? - tounge in cheek…
edit: spelling
Quote:
I’m sure there’s many more “undiscovered” jewels out there that being overlooked by this media driven industry.
Just go talk to your favorite shaper and find out what designs they’ve been dreaming about all these years but could never get the “yo dude” folks to accept…
It’s amazing the discovery process…
Exactly how I discovered widowmakers which have more or less replaced the ‘standard’ thruster for me, and I’m liking the look of the 5-er!
Too many boards, not enough time (or $ or decent waves at the moment really) This is good stuff, and again why we should all thank whatever answers for our gods that Sways exists.
Hell of a quiver you have going there Oneula.
I don’t know if you realized it but Greg has a couple of versions going on with the 5 fins.
One is the 3 fins in a row in the back and the other is a staggered version which he calls his “convertible”.
His convertible can be ridden as a quad thruster or twin with trailer while the other I believe is meant to be ridden as a five fin or possibly a quad. I believe they ride differently and use different plan shapes, rocker and fin profiles but only Greg would know. And when you talk to him you’ll find he’s very very particular and exacting on how all the pieces get put togethor. One of the things we admire about his work. He doesn’t settle for any imperfections in anything he does and everything has a good reason for being there not just because it looks or feels good to the hand…
There’s another 5 fin shape coming out of a shaper named Steve(?) at local motion that another friend of mine has been surfing for a couple of years. In that case its a thruster with two small canards on the inside of the outside fins like you would have in a quad. He says it loosens up the board for him which he likes since he’s older than me and it helps him carve his turns more.
The other is the 5 fin with the baby canards on the outside like Rusty and Spitzer were doing. I had three of these boards from northshore shaper George Ku and they tend to favor more powerful waves but track and are stiff in the junky stuff. Since George is a macking Laniakea specialist you can see why he would do his that way on his pre-desert island hybrid models.
Here’s my recent adventure with multifins
I ran it with a bunch of options but a couple faves were with MR twins up from and the MR trailer and some GR side bites in the rear three plugs and then with H2s up front and the MR twins right behind. Unfortunately one a smoking 3-4 foot morning last month I blew out the inside backhand fin pulling a cut back at full speed. Ended having to rush in and switch off to my Surflight with the MR fin dangling parallel the bottom. 2nd time these proboxes did it to me without using additional box strengthen inserts in the EPS to mount them.
There’s also alot of info on the McKee M5 Quatro web site including video clips and placement specs. It’s a different take on Greg’s design but chaulk load of the kind of info you may be seeking on fin combos.
http://www.mckeesurf.com/brucemckee/quattro.htm
I’m sure if Greg goes on his own his website will have a host of info on these designs. T&C has some on their website but it basic.
I’m sure Greg can give you references to email if that’s what you’re after go ahead give him a buzz. He’s very open about what he’s doing…
hey oneula,
thanks again for all the feedback. i appreciate it. i am reading the info over on surfer, and it really sounds interesting.
i have read mckee’s site, and it is informative for sure. the factory i work in here in brazil hosted mckee a while back, and build his boards here under license. i have studied the material he left behind, as well as built a few boards using his set up for multi fin options. good stuff.
i was admittedly naive about the system griffin is using, and didn’t realize the history behind it. having started surfing in florida in the mid 80s, i never saw these designs. of course the media never really covers this kind of stuff, unless a golden boy(backed by other big sponsors) is seen with one. and even then it usually for novelty sake.
i don’t think i would try to make one, i have my own demons to deal with, lol, but the 5 fin design really fired me up. maybe if i can save some money, i’ll get over to the islands to meet/see one in person.