Remember the Tin Man’s lock-jawed call for “OIL” in the Wizard of Oz?He’d been hit by a rainstorm and rusted up, frozen in that spot, and needed someone to oil his joints to get moving again.That was my board work life.A few years ago a life-storm hit and all priorities changed with board work way at the bottom, frozen up.Well, it’s coming back around.The itch needs some scratching.I’ve got an EPS blank that needs shaping and fin boxes that need installing.They’ve been there since before the storm.I’ve got a log that needs a leash loop.I’ve got a delam’ on my daughter’s favorite board.I’ve looked around and it’s time up start of the sander and make some dust.
Hopefully Swaylock’s will be the oil can and I’m appealing to the Swaylockians for shortcuts to avoid massive hours of searching through 4 years of archives.
The OIL:
What is the state of the state on filling EPS between shaping and glassing?
What is the status on the APS3000 software? No lecture on hand shaping please.I’ve got shapes in the old version and I figure some things have probably changed in the software and machines.
It must be my sloppy kook ways - but I like the putty, as I've had some seapage of water in the spackle: dings into foam, more delam than with putty... But again that's my own trip... I use 3/4 layers of 4oz now anyway... I prefer not to have dings to the foam every time I get washed on the rocks...
That being said, I may try a test sample of spackle to see if the glue really soaks all the way through it...
Some day I'll have to visit someone with a vacbag and see what the deal is... I like the possibilities.
Really sucks when you are glassing and you just have to keep throwing resin at it.
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Oh man you got that right - I kept mixing up a little more, and then a little more, and then a little more...unbelievable! I was using tint too, so its amazing that it came out as well as it did, since I kept having to estimate the amount of tint every time.
BTW, the link to the Spackle discussion was good - here is a quote from that thread "spackle...It'll be argued on this messageboard for years to come probably" - drewtang, February 11, 2008
Have you looked at Stretch’s facebook page? Or his posts on the ERBB?
He’s doing stuff that no other big board maker is doing.
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Greg sells the resin. He’s been trying to get his product recognized as a viable surfboard building tool since what? The '80’s? Finally, in the last decade or so, epoxy has finally gotten a foothold. He recommends using spackle with his epoxy. Either he’s an idiot or, he really believes that it’s the best option like he says. Why would he be telling his customers to do something that would make an inferior board when historically, people want to blame the epoxy for everything???
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Did you read what I said about the spackle, if done right, provides enough resin soak to make a strong bond but not soo much that it becomes brittle. Like I said, IIRC, Greg Loehr posted that from his test samples, using spackle provided a better bond. The weak link isn’t the spackle, it’s the foam. It’s the bond between the beads of EPS… When the spackle dries, its really just a caked powder. When you glass, the resin soaks through the spackle and bonds to the foam. The spackle being water soluble is a moot point because it’s soaked with resin.
I just lammed a board shaped from an old ecotech blank. Man that thing sucked up the resin! Maybe its just because I'm used to glassing wood boards, and I don't do many foam boards, but wow. Would it have helped if I spackled - or sealed - it?
Hello Ryan....It's ben a while but Trail 4 sounds like a fun way to spend the day....I surfed at the Power Plant today. I just chased around the 35 year old gal in a bikini.....An old guy like me needs to get the heart beat going!!!! She was in a bikini not me....ha ha.....You can get stoked out and learn from a Pro....Sealing blanks.
...and for anyone that does the microballon thing....I have a tub of microballons that I would like to trade for something that would be more useful for me. Have fun...Stay open minded!
Okay, I see I haven't missed much in the last couple years. There are mutliple ways to do something, maybe some trade-offs, and variety of opinions of what defines optimum. So from what I can take away from this so far is spackle works, epoxy/'balloons may work better and there's a more exotic solution with a table and vac' system and maybe if I have good EPS and good finishing I don't really need any of that.
Can’t say you ever stopped, and I don’t think you’ll ever learn. Too much spackle is a bad thing, but a little bit, and a good finished shape will be a success because the resin will form a composite with the epoxy. Robert Wiener is a class act, all the way around, I hate when less talented people take shots at people that are successful, and deserve the success they have earned.
I don’t spackle, or fill with a epoxy filler because I don’t have too. A well shaped and finished blank doesn’t need the extra step.
They are both businessmen, looking at their bottom line. Other than some interesting rocker ideas, Stretch doesn’t do anything special that everybody else isn’t doing. I don’t know anything about Greg’s boards.
Spackle is fast, and cheap and often adequate. But it is far from the best bonder for laminate to foam. A bond is only as strong as its weakest link, Here is a test for anyone. Take two pieces of paper, and glue them together with spackle. Now take two pieces pf paper and glue them together with epoxy. Which one is stronger? Now do the same test again, and wet the test samples with a little water, like where you got a ding, or maybe a stress fracture. Which one holds together, and which one falls appart without even pulling.
I can’t speak as to whether they really use it or not, but I know for a fact Roberts uses spackle. Roberts was “Shaper of the Year” and has his own line of FCS fins. He also outsources all his shaping to a machine shop, and just finish sands them. Roberts also pays pro surfers to ride his boards. Definitly a business man looking at profit and loss. I could be mistaken, but I think Mike D once posted that Coil doesn’t. Who’s board is state of the art?
So you gotta ask, are we making our own boards, watching pennies and minutes, or are we making our own boards because we think we can make them better than factory made?
Ok, this is my take on the state of spackle. Many will still disagree.
Spackle for filling EPS is a cheap shortcut and anyone using it should be embarrassed to admit they use it. You end up with an inferior product just to save a couple of bucks. Spackle is water soluble, which means it turns to mush when it gets wet if you ever ding it.
If you must fill the eps beads, because you are painting the blank and need a smooth clean surface use epoxy and microballoons. Make sure you mix the epoxy completely before adding the microballoons, and wear a dustmask when adding them.
Better yet is use Cerex brand N-Fusion nylon surfacing veil on a wet out table, and vacuum bag it onto the blank. After it is wrapped and cured, you can even glass with poly, because the EPS is completely sealed.
That is state of the art. At least as far as I can tell.
Don’t know nuthin about APS shaping, ask Surfding. He seems to be the most helpful machine shaper here.
I remember that many topics on Sway's come with differing opinions and I totally get the water soluble thing. I'd rather have a durable board than a pretty one.
FTR, I know of a couple people who initially shared that perspective and used epoxy/microbaloons but later decided that spackle works fine, too; and now use that instead. Not me - If I seal I still use epoxy/microbaloons. Either that or I seal with a light layer of cloth and do my color over that . IMO that yields a much cleaner result than doing it over spackle or microbaloons. My EPS blank guy says that the foams have gotten tight enough that sealing them isn’t necessary.
I consider Everysurfer to be a friend. The more I get to know my friend the more we disagree. I build surfboards. Everysurfer builds space ships...It makes for good discussion..........I spackle the crap out of everything!!!!!!
Ha...take that..........Every......
The spackle coat is a very light coat. Not an excuse for a bad shape....
and that dude called GDaddy....Listen to GDaddy...humble guy...good stuff......
A durable surfboard will be the result of a quality glass job...I'm a big fan of 6 oz. cloth.....