ok... so what do you think the problem is?

General Discussion
1

here’s the story of a board named brady…

i shaped myself a little 6’8’’ rounded pin for the winter. i took her out for her maiden surf last weekend in shoulder to head high surf. the conditions werent the best. it wasnt barreling but it was sort of hollow (at least for derty jerzey) but lots of closeouts so you had to be selective.

the problem is this… i had a really difficult time getting her to paddle into the wave, she just did not want to go period. my everyday board is a 6’0’’ and i have no problems with her at all.

here are the problem childs specs:

6’8’‘.18 3/4’‘.2 3/4’’ (wide point is 3’’ behind center)

nose - width 11 3/4’’ thick 1 1/4 rocker 5 1/4’’

tail - width 12 3/4’’ thick 1 3/4 rocker 2 3/4’’

bottom contour - single concave 20’’ from nose to fins to double concave through fins to 4’’ from tail. flat out tail

fins - rear dot front fins 11’’ 1 1/4 off rail toe’d to 1 1/2’’ outside the nose. rear fin at 3 3/4’'.

i have proboxes installed and the fins are all the way back in the boxes. my first thought was that my front fins are too far back. unfortunately, i didnt have a fin key accessible to move them around during my session. am i on the right track? could this have something to do with the problem? any other ideas?

incidentally, i am using the standard issue fins that came with the boxes.

thanks guys, i look forward to your ideas.

brasco

2

I might be way off. but have you tried laying farther foward on the board? I know when I go from my 5’11 to a 6’6 I have to make sure I am laying in the right spot.

3

Are you pushing a boatload of water with the rocker/concave ahead of the wide point?

4

girvin

ha… that was the first thing that pop’d into my mind, but the nose was just out of the water while laying down and paddling.

janklow

my second thought that i did something weird when i cut in the rocker, but i got of the board and looked at her as she sat on the surface and everything looked ok. when i got back home i laid a straight edge down the stringer and, again, everything seems ok.

now you may have something with the concave, but the single concave is fairly shallow (1/16’‘) until you get between your feet where it deepens to about 1/8’’ before splitting into the double between the fins. i think the bottom contour is ok, but then again i used to think crack was ok too…

brasco

5

The board my be highly sensitive to the drag created by your side fins. Take them out, and surf the board as a single. If the condition persists, then the front concave is the likely culpret. If so, then the additional drag created by the toe-in on the side fins, just makes it worse. Give it a try.

6

This may seem counterintuitive, but paddling with the tip of the nose just out of the water on a (relatively) narrow board with the wide point back will put too much of the rocker directly under your chest without the foam to support it. If positioning yourself a bit farther back doesn’t help, try shaping another with the wide point at or even a little forward of center. IMO, you might find you don’t need quite that much nose rocker as well, but make sure what you do have is well concentrated towards the tip and minimal under the chest/frontfoot area.

7

2-3/4" of tail rocker seems like a lot for the East Coast???

Dave_D

8

Ok,

Maybe some pics could help us to figure out something more: top, bottom, side, nose, tail, fins, bla, bla, bla…

9

jeffshaper

you are correct…pics are worth a 1000 words. i thought that my description of the the board would suffice but… thanks for your time and i will add pics soon

mr thrailkill

i just got home from work, and your point is very throught provoking, but i cant put my thoughts to pen (or keyboard) at the moment so please allow me a day to reply.

to everyone that has replied so far, thank you very much for your interest and your time. this is why i love sways. give me a day or two and i will post some pics so you guys have a little more to go on.

brasco

10

Hi Brasco -

Just curious… what is the tail width on your 6’0"?

Generic shortboards seem to be around 14" in California but go wider. I’ve shaped some wider tails (up to 15 1/2") that seemed to catch waves early and had some get up and go.

12 3/4" tail width may need more juice to get it up on plane? I was liking the width placement and all the other specs given. Everything seemed proportional but the tail seemed like it was on the skinny side. If it tends to sink in the face on takeoff and hold you back, something wider that hits plane at lower speed might lively it up.

As Bill Thrailkill said, excess toe/cant can result in fins being dragged if not surfed right

I have some ideas as an experiment if interested. Things like adding outline offcuts to the rear outline to reshape into a 15"+ tail. I’d bet that one change would make the biggest difference. The board could be overall a bit wider but fatten the tail width, glass over it and give it a go. A basic mold filled with bondo might give the same effect if you can’t find any offcuts.

11

If I hadda guess with no pics and your description…

Rocker is screwy. You have a lot of tail rocker, and I would be suspicious it is staged too far forward.

18" rear of center you want the rocker pretty close to 3/8". It should accelerate from there. If you are over 1/2", you found your culprit. Unfortunately the solution is harder…

Also, for Jersey, I doubt you will find it advantageous to go under 13" for the tail width. And even that only for overhead days.

12

ok guys, here’s a couple of pics as promised…

13

blakestah,

here are the tail rocker measurements (all reference points are measured from the tail) …

6’’ - 2 1/4

12’’ - 1 5/8

18’’ - 3/4

24’’ - 3/8

rereading your post blakestah, i noticed that your were referencing the measurement at 18’’ from center, not the tail. i will measure that point tomorrow while at work and get back you.

also, a few people have commented on the toe-in of the fins, and i realize that my initial post needs to be clarified. the toe-in measurement is 1 1/2’’ outside the nose (if you were to hold a straight edge at the nose, perpendicular to the stringer, the fin line will cross the straight edge at 1 1/2’')

thanks again for everyones input

brasco

14

Looks like you have a combination of a lack of volume under the chest with a highly rockered nose which has you pushing water.

Should have carried the thickness in the centre more towards the nose.

From your side on shot it also looks like your rocker forward of centre is not one clean continous curve too.

Correct me if I’m wrong- one & all.

15

Play with it wrt paddling, but I suspect it will be chalked up to the learning curve.

There was a very illustrative post by Greg Griffin on rocker staging…

Quote from Greg (he doesn’t really get into the problem at the other end of the range). But stick close to these guidelines for rocker to guide the arc through the center and your boards will stay closer to fine.

“On a 6’8” the tail rocker at 19" needs to be 3/8" minimum to release from center. If its lower the water forces the board up and releases to the side as it cant release down the center rocker making the board sketchy and ready to spinout .Because it cant release the board has trouble moving forward. The arc thru the center increases at the same measuring points as the board gets smaller. And they get lower as the board length increases. You can measure anyones successful quiver and find this to be true. There is no standard center measurement for all boards- bummer - but true."

16

Hi Brasco -

The Griffin quotes posted by Blakestah are worth noting but the board looks pretty good to me. I’d stick with it for a few more sessions and see if a change of waves makes a difference. Any board is worth riding until you’ve really given it a go in decent waves and dismiss it as a dog. Your options at that point include retiring it or start some fin experimenting.

17

blakestah,

any chance you recall the title on that post by greg? i’d be very interested in reading it in it’s entirety.

brasco

18

sunsetpoint

Member since: Mon May 09 2005

Location: Sunset Point ,Oahu,Hawaii

Status: Enthusiast

   <span style="font-weight:bold"> <span style="color:Black"><span style="font-size:6px">Re: [BillBarnfield] Is flat fast, faster, fastest ??</span></span>    Posted:  Jun 11, 2007, 3:15 PM

Post # 176 of 181 ( 897 views) [In reply to] Quote | Reply 

 First ,i have no knowledge of the existence of such a person as this Gary Speece-joking.

Second dont get pissed i am posting this , i need another bike box.

It is interesting that this subject of Radii has come up though. My good friend, big wave surfer and contractor extrodinaire… Gary Speece, sometimes shapes a few boards for himself. He long, long ago discovered that a certain radius though the middle of the board guaranteed him consistent success and he made bottom templates reflecting that so he could consistently produce the boards he liked. Kind of cool, regular guy figuring out what leaders missed.

On a 6’8" the tail rocker at 19" needs to be 3/8" minimum to release from center. If its lower the water forces the board up and releases to the side as it cant release down the center rocker making the board sketchy and ready to spinout .Because it cant release the board has trouble moving forward. The arc thru the center increases at the same measuring points as the board gets smaller. And they get lower as the board length increases. You can measure anyones successful quiver and find this to be true. There is no standard center measurement for all boards- bummer - but true.

www.griffinsurfboards.com

(This post was edited by sunsetpoint on Jun 11, 2007, 4:27 PM)

http://www.swaylocks.com/…orum.cgi?post=326100

I think the rocker looks wonky, apexing right under you.

19

you just need some well overhead +++ for that board to feel right - with a tail pulled in that much with that amount of tail rocker, it is shaped to have control in big steep waves (which will make it sloooooow in smaller mediocre waves) - bottom curve looks good - outline looks good - the foil on the deck a bit thin forward of midpoint. some more foam up front and a widepoint at center or an inch up will give you a lot more paddling speed! a board like that is no good under head high - take it out in waves that scare you and it will get you into some good ones!

20

Hey Brasco

Im not the rocker genius (thats why I get a blank thats close)

but like janklaw said theres definetly an obvious extreme rocker bump at mid point

that will make the board plow water

it will need some juice to feel good

but definetly dont give up on it

just drop it late