Ok Trucker, here’s a new thread on paddling in response to your posts about web gloves. I’d love to hear more from everyone out there on paddling technique/improvement…
Jeff
If you ever have the oportunity to train, or take lessons with an accomplished smimmer then jump at the chance. Swimming technique is so applicable in pddling a surboard and there are thousands of subtleties involved with correct body position and stoke that can make you a better paddler in a matter of months.
though a word of caution, just don’t get into the pool and start swimming if you’ve little or no prior swimming experieince as you can actually be doing a lot of harm to your nody, in particular the shoulders.
Drew
Here’s my attempt to summarize the excellent information on the “web gloves” thread. Experienced swimmers - please don’t hesitate to correct/add!
Or, if you are a visual person, check out this web site: http://buehlerbluemarlins.net/videos/athens2004/athens2004.html for some amazing Quicktime videos of Michael Phelps and the like doing the freestyle. It looks like they achieve planing speed without any board whatsoever!
Anyway:
– Don’t over-reach; put your hand in the water where it is comfortable
– Long smooth strokes
– Hands enter the water with thumbs down, palms out (not parallel to water)
– Immediately rotate your palms facing back to start the stroke
– Use the board as flotation device as much as possible; do not put your weight onto the shoulder doing the work
– Don’t overdip (hand doesn’t need to go deep to be powerful)
– Hand exits water pinky first, so palm faces the rail
– On recovery, let back do the work; arms stay relaxed
– On recovery, elbows higher than hand
Thanks for all the excellent advice,
Michael
You sure said it better than I could ! Thanks
Ben
So how does knee paddling fit in?
Before the advent of the sub-nine foot board we all were knee paddling. Most good old time longboarders I know still do and usually paddle a hell of alot faster than the pronies. Some even catch wvaes on their knees. Seemsd less stressful somehow…
Anyway in my fish days when I played JV and Varsity Waterpolo at Kamehameha with Keone D. and against Frosty(Cunningham) we swam alot of sprints doing the butterfly stroke. It seems to me that doing the butterfly till you puked in the shower built up your paddling abilities better than doing any 1200-1500 freestyle warm up laps… The butterfly shoulder rotation seemed more natural to agressive paddling or swimming with your head above water like polo players usually do.
Like Keone told me a couple of years ago, between waterpolo practice and bodysurfing sandys we were in the best shape of our lives then but that was a lifetime ago. Frosty’s the only one who stayed a fish. The rest of us became land animals.
Great advice. The only thing I was taught in addition by a strong waterman was that my hands should enter the water outside the board’s wake, in the still water.
Late Edit: And also exit the water outside the wake, again in the still water, with the stroke never crossing the wake.
Michael,
Good stuff, with two exceptions. Thumb downs, palm facing out is “internal rotation”. Not good on the recovery and start of the “catch,” causes “impingment” High elbow on the recovery is ideal for swimming when shoulder/body rotation is possible, good freestylers swim on their sides, rotating their shoulder towards the sky on the “recovery” phase. While paddling a surfboard you really can’t rotate your shoulder/body enough so you’re essentially swimming/paddling flat, and keeping a high elbow, or doing the ‘alligator stroke’ as my wife, the physical therapist calls it, internally rotates your shoulder on the recovery. Dangerous.
On the 'release" of the “pull” phase, if you’re are having shoulder problems try pulling your hand out at your hip and not pulling back to your thigh. This will reduce the stress on the “cuff”.
This is just my own experiences as a high-school, college,Masters swimmer with a PT wife whose "fixed’ a number of folk “swimmer’s shoulder” over the years.
Hey,
Okay, here we go! Now, like I said in the gloves thread–no one is to use this knowledge to snake me!
Phelps is amazing. Before he was the king, I actually swam against Tom Dolan (400 IM world record holder). He killed me. But watching these guys is truly inspiring–you’re right, they do achieve planing speed with no board–that is the key to fast freestyle–body high in the water (that is the purpose of the kick; it provides lift but very little forward momentum).
Long smooth strokes are the key–over the course of a month, work on lengthening your strokes and their efficiency. Also (this hasn’t been mentioned yet)–the reach continues for a few incheches under water. That’s where the shoulder rotation comes in.
Here’s a few ideas–
-
Use a modified “S” pull. First of all, it actually makes a lightbulb shape, if you use two arms–smooth out and back in, never crossing your center line. The “S” needs to be modified because a lot of its shape is actually created by rotating the body, which is not really possible on a board. The “S” was developed because it covers more distance than a straight pull and because its angles can create more force due to sculling. So, each person has to experiment to compensate for board length, experience, etc. I mainly use the first half of the S, but because I ride a lot of fish and longboards, the “in” part is hard to achieve/not necessary…
-
Relaxed recovery, high elbow… as discussed in the gloves thread.
-
What is sculling? It is the answer to all the non-fish out there! Sculling is the process of moving your hands in small figure eights in the water. This will move your body with zero forward-backward motion from the hands. Watching an experienced synchronized swimmer do sculling drills is amazing. They can move their body in any direction with what appears to be almost zero movement from their hands. This is achieved by mimicing propeller-style lever forces via the figure eight. It is the secret behind many great swimmers–we spend years developing great sculling technique.
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Let the board do some work–it will float and glide! Use this help!
-
Don’t get tangled in your board’s wake–with experience in the pool and sculling you’ll develop a good sense of your grip on the water.
Now, about the pool (and I can go on forever here).,… There are a variety of benefits–cardio, oxygen consumption, paddling technique, etc. The pool is a great place for experimentation with all variables minimized–and the lack of salt, board, etc. is a real shock in terms of floatation.
Accomplished swimmers cover 5,000 to 10,000 yards in a 120 to 180 min workout… typically 10 or more workouts a week. Do not attempt to come anywhere close to this in your first year or two, unless you are a teenager. For 16 years I did that schedule (plus running and lifting–50 weeks a year with two one week breaks)–it’s a lot of time looking at the bottom of the pool, but it works.
A good surfing workout would include a few of the following drills-- all written for a 25 yd or 25 meter pool (not a big enough difference to matter) with a clock or stopwatch. These workouts assume good surfing ability, minimal pool training.
Step one-- WARM UP! Don’t stretch first–stretch while you swim. Swim approximately 300 to 500 yards to loosen up.
Step two–swim four lengths of the pool at 80% intensity and time yourself. Take one minute of rest. Do this four or five times and take the average. This pace is helpful as you develop workouts.
Then…
Good drills-- All drills should be something like this–50/50–drill down, swim back. These are standard drills done by five year olds and still done at the Olympic training center in Colorado Springs (yes, my sister actually did them at the OTC in the late 90’s, under their coaches, video, etc. She’s fast). Tried and true.
Oh, and do your flip turns, even if they’re ugly at first. They’ll get better.
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Tickle the armpit-- swim standard freestyle, except your thumb must brush your side from your thigh to your armpit, then reach normally. This emphasizes the recovery (arm in the air part of the stroke). Remember proper reach and rotation.
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Catch up stroke–take a stroke, but leave your arm extended forward after recovery, legs kicking…focus on a smooth full reach. Don’t start your right arm stroke until your left arm catches up and meets it at the top. Emphasizes long strokes and builds leg strength.
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Hypoxic–my favorite and the sure-fire best way to improve for big waves while the ocean is flat-- two lengths standard freestyle, One length underwater with no breaths, one length full sprint freestyle. This is a great workout–ten in a row with 20-30 sec. rest each time is a great way to improve your “get me out of the impact zone” speed.
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Efficiency–another favorite–You must time yourself closely here–four lengths, count your strokes on each length, remember your time. Try to take one stroke off of each length but keep the same time. Less strokes and the same speed means longer more efficient swimming.
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Sculling drills with your body in various positions–feet first, belly up; head first, head up; head first on back are the standards. Do one length of sculling then one of regular free. Your pace is meaningless here. And, it’s very challenging and looks ridiculous, so just mess with it until sculling is easy. Remember–figure eights with your hands only! No pulling! I’m telling you, this is what separates the “fish” who just have a natural feel for the water.
Swimmers use their pace for 4 lengths (100 yds or meters) to create work outs. For example, if your pace is 1 min 30 seconds, you might try swimming four sets of four 100’s (4 lengths), running all of the drills–first four 100’s are catch-up, next four are tickle the armpit, etc.). Give yourself a standard interval, such as 2 minutes. Then, try to move your interval down, but swim at about the same speed. Then, your body is doing the same work with less rest–kind of like an epic session with nobody out. Swimming is good for your math sills, too.
A good starter workout might be 500 yd. warm up; 4x100 to determine pace; 4 x (4 x100) each drill gets a full four in a row. Then 4x 100 regular free at pace or faster and a nice 200-300 yard warm down, slow and easy.
Creat workouts and stay on the clock! You wouldn’t walk up to the bench press and do 27 in a row and walk away would you? Yet many people do basically the same thing by “swimming” for 45 minutes then taking a shower.
Okay, that’s a lot of typing about swimming… I have to go but I’d be glad to help anyone else…
Again, watch the Olympians. Ideally, watch one next to a “normal” guy, if you live in Maryland, Virginia, Michigan, SoCal, Florida, this will be easy. It’s kind of like watching Kelly Slater show up at your local beach break, except the difference is even more striking because the variables (good/bad waves, board, etc.) are gone.
All good stuff and I’ll add that the number one priority, especially for us older paddlers/swimmers, is shoulder preservation. All the conditioning you can achieve will go down the drain if you develope shoulder problems. Many techniques that high level swimmers use, such as arm extension on the recovery are not really a good idea for swimmer’s with any shoulder problems, since it can easily push you into serious trouble.
Pay attention to arm/shoulder pain, don’t ignore it, figure out what you’re doing wrong and correct it. It won’t just go away.
P.S- Since we’re name dropping, I swam against Spitz (200 free) 1964-65?,Santa Clara Swim Club.Came in second twice, 25 meters behind him, ugh!!
Great, informative post…
Might it bear mentioning with reference to the hypoxic drill or any breath-holding exercise in the pool, the importance of using a buddy or spotter? Most of us are pretty fit, but when pushing yourself in a good workout, it can sneak up on you…
Hey,
There are some excellent points in here about not overemphasizing the roll and high elbow. The earlier post re: swimmers’ body rotation/swimming on the “side” is correct and the alligator stroke might be worse…
All swimming techniques must be adapted to compensate for the body position and flotation elements of the board. I simply wanted to emphasize how important it is to shift the work to the big muscle groups and minimize the forces put on the smaller, more easily damaged ones.
And, as we all know, nothing feels worse than the old pinch inside the shoulder.
Spitz, eh??? He was amazing, even when he tried to come back. Hard to believe how fast he was at 40! I’e often wondered what world class swimmers could do on surfboards… especially after being impressed by my college swimming friends.
Name dropping… Hmm… the other big name I competed against was Mike Barrowman (greatest breaststroker ever… by the way, swimmers love breaststroker jokes). Although, when we’re talking Barrowman and Dolan–I was honored to be in the same pool as them and not be a spectator.
I’m going to start a new thread tomorrow or Wed. on a variety of shoulder preservation excercises that take place on dry land. One word–Vasa.
Competitive swimmers have to change and adapt their strokes to work efficiently with a surfboard under them.
Surfers don’t roll side to side, use more of an arm stroke, and most don’t get lift by kicking.
I surf with some swim teamers, some AAU swimmers, an ex assistant UC Berk water polo team coach (AAU), and Rich Thornton, '80 US Olympic Fly Team member (US didn’t go to Russia that year).
They all have great stamina, are in great physical shape, but paddle like everyone else who paddles well.
In a pool, they’d trash the surfers for sure. On a board, in the ocean, not much diff.
And I am a very weak paddler, by my own admission.
For those of you that are wondering, here’s a graphic I found showing the S stroke. I make no representations regarding the bathing suit the guy is wearing in the picture!
Trucker, can you explain sculling a little further? I’m just having a hard time visualizing it.
Jeff
Hey,
Since that drawing doesn’t account for the rotation of the body, it appears as if his hand does not go very far out and does cross the centerline. Your hand should never cross the center of your body when swimming.
I’m super busy at work for the next few days, but I’ll find some pics (or draw/scan them) of sculling.
Good that you brought that up! Hypoxia training is what many here in Santa Cruz believe Jay Morioraty was going when he died. He was a hell of a nice guy that I surfed with ocassionally at P.P and fearless big wave surfer. It’s a shame he was alone when he died or he might not have.
Just jumping in here… Swam in HS and through College, 6th in Small colleges (Calif.) in ‘68’? for the 200 free. Got back into swimming in ‘79’ to compete in Tri’s. Still competing at the age of 56. Surfed in HS and College backed off to once or twice a year untill last year.
NOw onto the paddling stuff…
I find that I can catch waves easier than most others around me and I;m sure it’s because of the swimming experience and conditioning I’ve had. So…All of you that have mentioned ‘get in the pool’ (IMHO is that how it goes?) are correct. But what has not been mentioned is the benefit of ALL the Master’s Swim classes/organizations/teams. Just to get in the pool and swim or do drills is not enough. To improve you NEED someone standing over you constantly reinforcing what you should be doing, small corrections at a time.
Let me throw my 2 cents worth in on what has already been said:
michael - Don’t over reach -
Good! Over reaching on a board will rotate or dip one side of the board BUT in swimming it is
beneficial when rotating on your side to get the longest stroke possible.
<span style="font-style:italic">long smooth strokes - </span>Excellent! I see so many surfers with short choppy strokes... long and smooth is better.
<span style="font-style:italic">Thumb down entry - </span>Although some coaches advocate this... it isn't necessary. Reach out about 6-7" infront of
your head and 'slide' your straight fingers/palm/wrist into the water and straighten your arm out to it's full
extension as your hand continues, gradually, down to a depth of 1'
<span style="font-style:italic">rotate palm to back - </span>when teaching swimming (way back when...) I found that the more variety of words that I
used, explaining the same thing, that more students understood. While this statement is correct other
explanations might help. 1. After full extension bend your wrist such that your palm is parallel to the direction
you want to go. 2. bend your wrist as if you were trying to lift yourself out of the pool, ie.. standing in pool,
palms on the deck, now pull yourself out. Actually, this is an excellent exercise to develope the muscle for a
good swimming/paddle stroke. 3. A coach once said "Drop your wrist", I had no idea what he ment but all of a
sudden my wife was swimming perfectly!?
<span style="font-style:italic">exit pinky first - </span>if you do, the finish of your pull will slip, you won't have a good follow through. Try keeping your
palm pushing all the way through till your elbow is fully extended then extend your fingers backtill they are out
of the water.
<span style="font-style:italic">recovery, elbows high - </span>a few comments have been made on this already. High elbows are good for swimming but
you have the advantage of no board under you and you can rotate fully. I still find that is beneficial to try and
get my elbows up while paddling but not quite as high.
Oneula - Knee paddling - Only personal experience but I find that I’m a bit slower at knee paddling. I was in a distance
paddle last year and seemed to stay up with the middle to faster paddlers while prone but my shoulders couldn't
take it and had to occasionally knee paddle, ie... it's a more natural position for the shoulders to function. Sore
shoulders prone padling? Try knee paddling for awhile.
Trucker -
'S' pull - </span>I think that the consensus now is a straight line pull. The stroke 'looks like' an 'S' with the rotation of the
body but a straight pull from the point of full extension is the front to full extension in the back is the most
effecient. At one time, there was a special on NOVA about it, there was the idea that the hand (fingers palm
wrist) could act as an airplane wing and provide lift if 'slid' sideways (45 degrees?). True, but not quite enough
to actually make a difference, pull straight, it's better for your body.
<span style="font-style:italic">let the board do some work -</span> EXCELLENT! I find that even in the water people don't G L I D E enough. You put
the energy in... wait just a split second and take advantage of it! Pull - glide- pull - glide...
<span style="font-style:italic">don't stretch first - </span>Excellent! In ALL types of exercise it's best to warm up first. I find that Tai Chi warm up of
simple shoulder, waist, knee, ankle rotation warms up my whole body befor surfing. The stretching is best left
for after exercising (surfing).
<span style="font-style:italic">*</span>good info on swimming drills but you REALLY need constant feedback about your stroke by a quallified coach.
Join a Master's club/team/group. I swim at the local Jr. College and the coaches are GREAT! If yor coach
doesn't give much info then maybe your not asking enough questions! "Hey coach! How's my stroke? Am I
reaching too far? Is my hand deep enough?"
<span style="font-style:italic">Hypoxic breathing - </span>I think scgary's comment is appropriate. Best not to do it. Besides... when surfing we're
on top of the water and can breath as much as we want. In swimming your face (breathing part) is under
water most of the time.
<span style="font-style:italic">scgary - pay attention to shoulder/arm pain - correct it, it won't go away
</span>GREAT suggestion! As a Chiropractor I see many shoulder problems. People just keep going and don't pay
attention to a little problem untill it's a BIG problem and they can't use the body part, almost, at all. So to
help... I'll say that the rotator cuff muscles, the little tiny ones that we use A LOT in surfing and swimming just
can't handle all the stress that we put on them, they have a BIG job to do and need help. To help them...
strengthen them! Do internal/external rubber band (bungy cord) exercises.
Also... I'm sure all of you have, on occasion, been out on the GREATEST day of your life (many times I hope!)
and later when you eventually come in your arms are about to fall off, I know I have! Well, you've
microscopicaly injured your muscles, the body repairs the injury by laying down more tissue... scar tissue. Over
years and years of micro injuries you begin to have pain and restriction of movement. Get deep tissue
massage/Rolfing or Graston to repair/rehabilitate the area will work wonders on your longevity!
Well, now I know why I don’t post very often… I get involved and just can’t stop! I hope this helps.
TriDrLes
Here’s some stuff to read in regards to shoulder preservation. It’s aimed at swimmers but applies to paddlers/surfers for the most part:
“Swimmer’s shoulder,” the most common swimming injury, is an overuse injury involving inflammation in the supraspinatus and/or biceps tendons usually caused by glenohumeral instability (figure 1) (8,9). Additional degenerative changes in the supraspinatus tendon may result from repeated “wringing out” of its blood supply during adduction with the finish, or late pull phase, of the stroke (10). The repetitive irritation of supraspinatus tendinosis may lead to acute local inflammation that further decreases the subacromial space, causing secondary impingement and possibly subacromial bursitis. A new trend in competitive swimming is to modify the finish of the stroke so that the arm exits the water at the iliac crest (figure 2). This technique change is intended to reduce irritation of the supraspinatus tendon.
Proper stroke technique greatly improves a swimmer’s ability to train intensely without injury. Technical flaws lead to increased shoulder stress and become more frequent and severe with fatigue (11). Most competitive swimmers receive ample technique instruction at younger ages, but stroke work drops considerably after age 12.
Some specific freestyle technical flaws heavily stress the shoulders and can lead to overuse injuries. In properly performed freestyle, the elbow remains well above the hand during the out-of-the-water recovery phase and the catch phase of the stroke (figure 2). Dropping the elbow during these phases may irritate the rotator cuff muscles (1). This high elbow position on the recovery is achieved by rolling the body 70° to 100° per stroke cycle. Failure to sufficiently roll the body from side to side promotes impingement of the shoulders (10).
In the entry and catch phase of the stroke, the hand should be in front and at a position just outside the line of the shoulder. Entering too far to the side and overreaching toward the midline are common mistakes in tired swimmers. These positions are less efficient and force the shoulder to bear a greater load when the arm is straightened during the pull phase. Other fatigue-related errors in competitive swimmers, such as breathing only to one side (breathing every other stroke) (10) or kicking poorly and losing a buoyant body position, may add to overuse stress.
Use of hand paddles (Webbed gloves), which increase surface area and water resistance, and use of kickboards also can exacerbate shoulder pain (12). Weight training, excessive stretching exercises, improper stretching, and partner stretching may also irritate the injured shoulder (6,7). On the other hand, poor flexibility predisposes the swimmer to injury (13). To prevent stretching of the rhomboids instead of the posterior capsule, the swimmer must actively control scapular motion and passively stretch the capsule. The swimmer may be instructed in these techniques by a physical therapist or athletic trainer. Anterior inflexibility correlates with increased shoulder pain (7).
Swimmers (surfers) may have increased shoulder laxity when compared with nonswimmers, especially in the anterior and inferior directions, though some laxity may be inherently genetic (14). To stabilize the humeral head in the glenoid fossa, swimmers who have greater shoulder laxity increase stress on their rotator cuff muscles, which increases the risk of tendinitis (15). The freestyle arm stroke naturally strengthens the internal rotators; thus, most swimmers’ internal rotators are significantly stronger than their external rotators (12). Addressing Shoulder Injuries
Diagnosis. When evaluating a swimmer’s shoulder pain, identifying the painful phases of the stroke may aid diagnosis and treatment. Frequently, irritation is worst during the catch or early to middle pull portion of the stroke, though arm abduction during the recovery phase sometimes contributes to it (16). The “painful arc” syndrome–pain on active abduction between 45° and 120°–suggests supraspinatus tendinitis (figure 3). The physician should also evaluate for:
- impingement,
- internal or external rotator muscle weakness,
- anterior, posterior, inferior, or multidirectional laxity and instability, and
- point tenderness over the supraspinatus and/or biceps tendons.
Treatment. Though management of swimmer’s shoulder requires rest, it is important to minimize a swimmer’s time out of the water (5). When possible, relative rest should include pool-based training alternatives such as nonaggravating strokes or one-arm butterfly. Kicking drills can be emphasized, but care must be taken not to irritate the shoulder further with kickboard use (13).
Studying the swimmer’s stroke mechanics is essential because alteration may be needed to prevent reinjury. Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) and ice are part of the standard treatment. Massaging the shoulder with a frozen paper cup of water for 15 minutes works very well in the shower after workouts (13).
Physical therapy should include internal and external rotator strengthening in arm abduction and adduction and supraspinatus strengthening (9,16). Steroid injections must be used with caution in all athletes; for swimmers, training load should be decreased for 3 to 4 weeks after injection (15). (See “Subacromial Space Injection: Pain Reliever, Diagnostic Tool,” page 119.) If necessary, complete rest from swimming often will allow the injury to heal.
Surgery is rarely needed in young swimmers (9). However, surgery is sometimes considered for athletes with chronic shoulder pain that does not respond to conservative treatment. A capsule-tightening procedure may be considered for athletes with instability. Subacromial decompression should be considered only for swimmers who have a type 3 (hooked) acromion, and then only as a last resort (9). Preventing Shoulder Injury
Appropriate prevention of swimmer’s shoulder is critical in all intense training programs. Routine icing and, in some cases, prophylactic NSAIDs may be needed during heavy training. Continual reinforcement of proper stroke mechanics and adequate flexibility is essential. Yardage and intensity must be increased gradually at the start of each season, and warm-up and cool-down periods should be lengthy. After long kicking-only sets, a swimmer needs additional warm-up before using arm strokes at normal speed (15).
Weight training should emphasize the same goals as rehabilitation, including consistent rotator cuff strengthening exercises (9,16). Hand paddle use should be minimized. These simple modifications can greatly decrease a swimmer’s chances of shoulder overuse but are frequently overlooked when intense training is the priority. Copyright (C) 1999. The McGraw-Hill Companies. All Rights Reserved
Quote:
For those of you that are wondering, here’s a graphic I found showing the S stroke. I make no representations regarding the bathing suit the guy is wearing in the picture!
Trucker, can you explain sculling a little further? I’m just having a hard time visualizing it.
Jeff
so according to this pic your forearm is supposed to be paddling underneath the board?
Quote:
so according to this pic your forearm is supposed to be paddling underneath the board?
yes that was the idea, but not so extream as to cross to the stringer…
but Tridrles wrote that the S stroke seems to be going out of style due to
in practice not being as benefitial as in theory…
Quote:
Tridrles (sp?) wrote:S’ pull - I think that the consensus now is a straight line pull. The stroke ‘looks like’ an ‘S’ with the rotation of the
body but a straight pull from the point of full extension is the front to full extension in the back is the most
effecient. At one time, there was a special on NOVA about it, there was the idea that the hand (fingers palm
wrist) could act as an airplane wing and provide lift if ‘slid’ sideways (45 degrees?). True, but not quite enough
to actually make a difference, pull straight, it’s better for your body.
I wrote a tutorial on rescue board paddling for a lifeguard web site I maintain. It’s geared mostly toward new lifeguards who have very little experience on a board, and the technique isn’t really applicable to a short board, but… here you go: