I read the article, and felt, as many other people do the need to respond. So here it is. This type of construction has been in use in the high tech end of the boatbuilding industry for over 20 years now. It is not new buy any means. As someone who has been part of this industry (boatbuilding) since 1980,I have a pretty good idea what is involved in building these boards, particularly the glassing processes. I have also been building my own surfboards since the early 70s. These days I only glass my boards. Ive been with the same shaper for 10 years now and see no valid reason to try any of the so-called new tech ways of building my surfboards, even though I have the ability and the easy access to high tech materials. Epoxy resin is nasty stuff. I react to it, if exposed to large amounts regularly. If the current approach to building surfboards is so out of date and the materials being used are so obsolete, why then do still persist in using them? As far as I am concerned if it aint broke dont fix it. If people want to make eps/epoxy surfboards who am I to stop them. If they want to mass-produce them dont take advantage of poorer people from third world countries and pay them peanuts. In Australia these boards cost in excess of $1000A. I wonder how much they cost to produce? I believe eps foam is relatively cheep, the glass is no different to the glass used in conventional boards. The epoxy, is more expensive than polyester. Wages are almost non existent. The biggest cost would be the PVC foam and all the bagging materials, and transporting all the waste to the local landfill. Furthermore the cost of these materials would be vastly reduced because of the volume they are purchasing. Vacuum bagging if done properly it is the best way to build a composite product. But it is a very wasteful process. There are four components involved. Peel ply, it can only be used once. It absorbs the excess resin and when removed leaves a fair finish. Perforated film, this allows the air to move from the laminate to the bleeder blanket. It can be reused but it does not always survive when the bag is removed. Bleeder blanket, this allows the air being removed to travel to the suction point. This also absorbs some resin, so depending on the amount of resin it absorbs you may only get 1or 2 pulls out of it before it gets thrown out. The bag itself is reusable, hopefully they are using custom made bags not oneoff bags sealed with tacky tape. And what I understand from the advertising each board is bagged twice in a 10-stage process. So in conclusion I am not against the Surftech surfboard per say if people want to ride them, good luck to them. It is the way they are produced using cheep labor, working in a possibly unsafe workplace. I understand that the people working there need to support their families and are probably grateful for having a permanent job to go to. But at least pay them a reasonable wage that reflects the work that is done. I’m speaking from experience here. It is dirty, smelly, sticky, itchy work.
Uh, here it really is: Shape the blank, wrap the cloth, spread on the resin, hotcoat it, sand it, wax it, surf it. That’s all there is to it.
You make it sound so complicated…What’s the EASY way…???..
So in conclusion I am not against the Surftech surfboard per say if people want to ride them, good luck to them. It is the way they are produced using cheep labor, working in a possibly unsafe workplace. I understand that the people working there need to support their families and are probably grateful for having a permanent job to go to. But at least pay them a reasonable wage that reflects the work that is done. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I’m not claiming to any kind of expert, but I have talked to a veteran shaper who has visited the factory in Thailand. His report is that their factory is state of the art. It’s a 350,000 sq.ft new facility that surftech is just a small part of. The workers there are supposed to be paid quite well for the standards in Thailand. It isn’t a slave shop regardless of ones philosophical opinion of how good of a product they manufacture.If you ask retail surf shop owners from Hawaii to California and the east coast, you might hear that these molded boards are commanding about 1/3 of the market for longboards
I like Surftechs. It makes it easy to identify the kooks in the lineup. And that must be true since I have never, ever witnessed anyone ripping on one.
ive always identified kooks in the lineup by their lack of experience. some paddle out on s-techs. but ive seen way more kooksters on real live handmade foam and fiberglass than any foreign-born pop-outs. if anyones gonna to take you seriously as a surf bigot then you gotta at least try to argue in a cogent manner. aside from legal issues, kelly s. would flat out rip shit up on several of the s-techs models. when that day comes you custom dudes will fully crap your britches. so git ready. theres still time to buy a box or two of Depends.
You can’t sue a guy for claiming that kooks ride Shittechs. Kook is an opinion. There is no definitely no difinitive definition defining the word kook. Now, on the other hand, the word “cook” has definite meaning. If I said that everyone who rides a Sucktech is a cook, well then that would be a misstatement. Maybe you could sue me then. But I’m Mickey, and have lots of money dating back to the time when Walt got out a pencil and…well, you know the story. I agree that Kelly Slater would rip on one of your designs. He would tear it up. Then, he would go in, grab his regular board, and rip that one up even more. But here’s the real kicker. Listen to this scenario: Kelly is at the Trestles event next week. He is ripping on his regular board, but loses the first round heat. So he must go to the second round to try to survive long enough to make it to the quarters, semis, etc. to earn points (and bucks). Well, he wants the rails a little harder (or softer, or wider, or flatter rocker—anything) so he calls Merrick. “Dude, I need a new board by tomorrow, harder on the rails, please.” Do you think it can be done? Of course it can, overnight. You probably can’t even ship a Sinktech overnight. How long would it take to actually get the thing designed, poured, laminated, puked on, boxed up, and sent overseas from (where was it?) Thailand, Viet Nam, India, Russia, Mexico? I forgot which, but I think it was Slobobia or somewhere that doesn’t have Americans working and earning money to feed their families. See, there is of course a huge market for “your friend’s” product, and yeah, there are people out there ripping on them (though I honestly haven’t seen it yet). But keep in mind that there will always be smart-ass, wise guy, know-little know-it-alls who will always be detractors. I will never succumb to riding one of those things (Unless, of course, I get paid, free boards, and am allowed to get polyurethane boards on the side—I’ll paint them to look like Pooptechs). I like the fact that I can call my shaper (who is a really nice guy and a real artist and craftsman) and get a board in three days. The guy is phenomenal. And his boards are soooooo light. will they last five years? Heck no. I hope not, because that would mean I’m not pushing it. But I make good money, and 350 bucks is not that bad to pay for a board that I’ll get a year out of. I will say something positive about Surftechs. They burn a lot faster than a regular polyurethane board when making surf sacrifices. Unfortunately, they are just as poluting to the environment in a fire as the regular jobs. Seems like when I was a kid, huge plumes of black smoke only caused a few second looks. Now it causes the local authorities to send out the FD, the PD, the EPA, the FBI, the CIA, the NSSA, the NASA, and the NAACP. So, I can’t really do that anymore. Plus, it ruins the taste of marshmellows. Okay, I’ll shut up after one more thing: Move the factory to the USA. Yes, it will be expensive, but since a third of the longboard market (according to you) is Styrotech, then you can afford it, and it will bring a very large amount of respectability. The technology is here, and you know it. They have been making sailboards that way since the Lincoln administration (or was it Grant’s—I can’t remember). Heck, I’ll even buy one if they are made entirely in the USA. I promise.
Oh, I forgot to mention. I don’t wear Depends. Don’t need em. Heck, haven’t you seen my cartoons? Half the time I don’t even wear pants! Neither does Donald. But, my poops are small and dry, so can easily be cleaned up by the nice men and women in the park who walk around all day with dustpans and brooms. Or, maybe I don’t poop at all. It IS the Magic Kingdom, after all.
Hey Mick, your nose is getting big. Oh wait, that’s Pinocchio. I’d never call big Al when my Ratboy model is handy.
“But I make good money, and 350 bucks is not that bad to pay for a board that I’ll get a year out of.” lets put this in perspective: even little kids delivering newspapers make more than $1 a day. now lets do the math- average thai workers earn $3 a day so a years ride on a s-tech should cost at least $1095. but you dont ride popouts. your custom sticks are superior. which means your U.S. custom “makem-in-3-days” boards should realistically be selling for at least 2 grand a year. that doesnt work out to very much per hour. youre cheep cheep cheep cheep dude. why dont you support your local board builders and pay them what theyre really worth?
I pay what they ask. Do pay extra for a car? The salesman tells you it’s 20 grand. Do you then say, “Hey, I’ll give you 30 grand.”? Dude. Make sense.
I’m not really qualified to join the Surftech debate since I’m just an all-American mat rider, but I have done some work for Disney over the years, and I know that precious little i.e. virtually none of that product is manufactured in the USA. Creative R&D happens here but the cartoons, books, toys, and etc. get made Over There somewhere. I’m not defending it one way or another, but I hope it doesn’t come as news. BTW, Chinese Internet stocks have been kicking ass over the last few months, if you’re the gamblin’ type.
o.k. heres some sense: dont you ever tip the waiter? isnt your board builder worth more than minimum wage? does your yearly income exceed your shapers? if you want him to prosper and not just barely survive, then you are faced with a social responsibility. you have the power. journeymen plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, you name the tradesman- all make more per hour than those poor souls whose long-term dedication is largely a labor of love. building you their personal best. bottom line: real custom surfboards will eventually pass away because bros like you are contributing to their demise. live your life by doing whats right, not just whats required.
This is classic. Dude, you should be a lawyer, or a far-left liberal or far-right conservative. You are clever, and I am not being sarcastic at all. You basically turned the whole thing around so that if we buy Surftechs we are doing the right thing. It’s the moral thing to do. We are holding people down because we buy from local shapers. They are pions (if that’s how it’s spelled), and we need to stop exploiting them. Then they can get real jobs and make a more dignified living (unlike the dudes at Cobra who probably live in grass huts). I gotta give it to you. You are a great orator. I’m sure your “friend” Randy French is stoked he has guys like you on his side. Your argument rocks! However, Surftechs suck! Sorry, but I am going to do the immoral thing and continue to buy from my local shaper. I may go to hell, but at least I’ll go on a board that my shaper made for ME, not a hundred thousand people. I’m done with this. Oh, and I’m not really Mickey Mouse. I just used that name to be a smart ass. I hope that didn’t come as a surprise (but I still walk around without pants sometimes, just like Mickey and Donald) Take care, and have fun riding the Styrotechs, the boards of the future (on twenty-year-old technology).
I read in one of the mags. that Surftech pays their workers around $250.00 per month. They did not say if it was US. That would be a little over 8.00 a day. Many of the same supporters of surftech support ultra left wing liberal organizations that claim to hold human life in such value. (you know save the environment and all) pretty good contradiction huh. Nothing new though,Quik and all the rest get their clothing made in china as well. The boards are great for retailers who for the most part don’t care about boardbuilders exept to try and get them to lower their prices so they can make more money. With the surftechs they get to pay around $550.00 for a longboard and charge $850.00 for them. More mark up more MONEY. These surfboards are now a simply a product. Not the product of hours of personal attention by a experience shaper who puts his personal touch on every board he shapes and gets harassed by wanna be surf stars who beat him up on price and act like they are doing him a favor by riding his boards and curse the boards the first time they get put out of a heat. Surftechs may be the future, but lets be honest about what it is they are about; MONEY. Lets also be honest about the product,which is simply another hyped fad with no real improvement in design or handling. I am with Mickey Mouse. Kooks sell em, kooks buy em, and kooks ride em. Two words sum up the surf industry Hype and Money or the easier way to say it: Bullshit. Hand shaped surfboards are the only pure thing left in surfing. They are the only thing that the name on the product means something. Even the machined boards are tuned in by experienced shapers.
This may be a little long, but … … criticism is most effective when the true issues are addressed. Emotion and friendship aside let’s look at some of the intriguing points Dave made in the “Manifesto” regarding Surtech, surfboard technology, surfboard design, surfing, and surf culture. (Coincidentally, I’m a lifelong friend of Randy French’s and I know he respects very much the fact that I am not supportive of Surtech. I accept it for what it is, a major player in the Action Sports Industry, but I do not believe it is good for surfing, surfboard design, or surf culture. And trust me on this; real custom surfboards will never, ever pass away.) Regarding surfboard technology and surfboard design: “All of these surfboard technologies, whether honeycomb & hollow, injected foam core & plastic skin, foam core & veneer, etc. – whatever their individual merits – also have failed to acknowledge the overarching principle of surfboard design (we’ll get to the engineering later): it is not static; it changes constantly. And – this is most important to remember – these design changes traditionally have always emanated from the underground or backyard shaper, usually one that is known as a ‘surfer/shaper’. No valid, widely accepted and permanent design revolutions have ever come from a large-scale manufacturer. More on this principle later, as it links up with what I believe to be the most insidious danger to surfboard design in history. No large-scale manufacturer, in this case SurfTech (or its poor relation, BIC), could ever keep up with the rapid design changes produced by a gifted or imaginative shaper working independently with polyurethane and polyester. A large-scale overseas manufacturer –such as SurfTech – would be even less able to keep up with design evolution in full stride. In fact, it would be in the interests of any molded board manufacturer to restrain or control the flow of new ideas to a rate that suits their supply lines and their construction methods (not to mention their bloated advertising campaigns.) For an analogy I feel safe in asking you to consider the automobile industry. Every year, in January, new models are released with fanfare and hype. Any longer than a calendar year and the interest might droop; any shorter and the manufacturing process couldn’t keep up – and the market would be confused and distracted. In any event, the automobile manufacturers as huge, lumbering, monolithic corporations must artificially create and control the flow of ‘innovation’ to suit their interests. Certainly their manufacturing process cannot react very fast to anything but cosmetic changes, at least not in the way that the backyard surfboard builder can react to new ideas and innovation literally overnight (design history is full of these overnight, reactive boards – some very important surfboards were hastily built to use on the next day of the same swell.)” Regarding surfboard design and large manufacturers such as Surtech: "Ultimately, this continual refinement of surfboard design is what it is all about. As we discussed earlier, it is not necessarily in the interests of a large manufacturing concern such as SurfTech to make small shape/design refinements that improve performance. It is a matter of economics, really. For example, it is in my best interests to improve a surfboard design so that it rides better. In doing so I will draw more customers and make more money. I can react and make these changes literally overnight. But for a large-scale builder like SurfTech, making sudden design changes will – initially - cost them money; it is in their best interests to have less volatile, generic board designs that are unlikely to overnight sprout new control features like concaves, fluted wings or beveled rails. So here, in short, is the problem: All large surfboard manufacturers, be they mold-o-maniacal or shaping machine-aholics, will end up in a parasitical relationship with the backyard surfer/shapers who dream up the original designs or fresh hybrids we will be riding tomorrow. Remember the unassailable truth that no large manufacturer has ever come up with a Quantum Leap, i.e. the mini-gun, the down rail, the Thruster, etc. It is my contention that none of these big-time manufacturers could ever lead surfboard design. They can only follow. …And follow rather slowly at that. This is especially true where the modern high-performance shortboard or hybrid is concerned. Every time SurfTech has to have a new plug shaped and a new mold built, it will cost them time and money. Whereas for a shaper like myself, the more often that I can produce valid, demonstrable improvements in design, the larger my clientele and income will be almost immediately. Furthermore, it costs me nothing – better yet I can do it all in my backyard with little more machinery than a piece of Masonite and a Skil 100. " Regarding the significance and importance of the surfer/shaper : "What will happen in the future if the traditional body of working shapers is reduced? By wiping out jobs for production shapers we are robbing our sport of future contributions that might have come from the next Rawson or Rusty, both of whom honed their skills by shaping thousands of production boards, and then perfected those same skills by working with large stables of world class surfers. With those jobs gone, the best that we can hope for is a generation of shapers that have spent the bulk of their careers whittling the router ruffles off of computer shapes, subbing for a ‘master shaper’ that has fallen out of love with shaping to such an extent that he will stoop to sign someone else’s work. Since the classic surfer/shaper along the lines of a Brewer, a McTavish or a Fitzgerald are, apparently, a dying race we will have to rely on a future base of technically adept production shapers who have come up through the ranks after building their ten or fifteen thousand custom and stock boards. If those production jobs are not there for them, we risk the unthinkable: that our surfboards will be designed by proxy; by a company like SurfTech and a bunch of longboard-era ‘master shapers’ who might be hell on wheels with a Rockwell, but whose ideas on surfboards are twenty or thirty years out of date. For example, can you imagine if, back in the ‘70s, Dick Brewer had built a shaping machine rather than share his knowledge with a stable of white-hot protégés? How limp and wilted our surfing lives would be today without the contributions made by Brewer-trained shapers such as Reno Abellira, Sam Hawk, Mark Richards, Tom Parrish, Gerry Lopez, et al. And yet this is exactly what is happening today, as shaping machines and offshore manufacturers take apprentice or production jobs away from surfers who might well have someday been the next Parrish or Richards. " Regarding surfing and surf culture: "Molded boards such as those being promoted by SurfTech have always had a reputation as ‘kook boards”. There is no need to resort to this kind of reactionary name-calling – yet, there is an argument that can be made that agrees with this idea, and it follows a ruthlessly logical path. Let’s say that you have swallowed the ad campaigns and hype of the (so-called) ‘design’ columns in one of the magazines, and have purchased a new Cobra-built SurfTech board. It matters not whether it is a longboard or shortboard model. You ride it for a few months and enjoy the board. It works well for you, and does pretty much everything you ask for. … But, after a while, your skill increases or you begin to see things in the board that you could change for the better. If surfing occupies a central part of your life and you are committed to progressing - as good, experienced surfers do - then you will want to make design changes that will allow you to reach the next level. For the longboard, one may realize that he wants to, for example, thin out the tail and change the wide-point. The shortboard is more sensitive to refinements: the surfer may want to flatten the rocker slightly and change the apex of the vee panel to suit the fin setting he uses. Now, not every good surfer can work with a shaper and contribute such clarity and exactness in his desires. But all experienced surfers do so to some extent. This I have found to be an irreducible truth. Some will merely ask for a thicker board, or softer rails. Other surfers that are more in tune may be able to request far subtler changes in tail rocker, hip placement and a myriad other dimensions. What they have in common is that they are all interested in progressing, are excited about their next custom board, and recognize that being involved in the design and construction of their surfboards is a vital part of their desire to progress. This is the heart and soul of the custom surfboard industry – and is one of the last truly neat things about surfing. If this design process scares or intimidates a surfer, or he doesn’t develop the surfing skills that are necessary to forge ahead, he may just decide to wave at the passing parade from the sidewalk and say, “I can’t be bothered, my board is good enough. I really only surf on weekends, anyway.” Any surfer that is not interested in or serious about progressing is a “kook” in my estimation. It is that simple. Let the chips fall where they may, but it’s the truth. Good surfers always want to trade up to a better riding board – the better a surfer is, the faster and more eagerly he attacks the refinement process. I say this to all those surfers who – for whatever reason – applaud the ideology of the molded pop-out board a’la SurfTech/ Cobra: If you have somehow lost the thread of progressive surfboard design in your middle years, fine, go ahead and ride one of those Hasbro surfcraft – it’ll look nifty in your garage next to your other emblems of faltering commitment gathering dust there, such as your Tupperware kayak and Chinese-made mountain bike. However, for God’s sake, do not in your pathetic malaise be a Chicken Little screeching about the “falling sky.” Don’t whisper sotto voce falsehoods while screeching out cheers from the armchair for “progress” when you do not know what you are talking about. All you good and experienced surfers out there who are trapped on a stamped-out, look-alike surfboard that is someone else’s idea of what a good board is, I offer you this: Once you have decided that you would surf better with some design changes you will want to take your spiffy pop-out board to a custom shaper and ask for, say, less rocker or a wider tail. However, if the doors are chained up and the shaper is now cleaning pools for a living or there is a Starbuck’s where the shop used to be – well, you’ll know who to blame. …And you can go down to the docks and sit there to wait for the container ship to bring you – on the slow boat from China - a business man’s idea of the “hot new” model you will soon be riding. "
Technology for better (stronger, lighter) surfboards doesn’t have to be difficult or dangerous (Mr. Platt’s problem with epoxies probably have to do with the epoxy he’s using and the clean up solvents he’s abusing). There are better methods and better materials than most surfboard builders are using today available right now. Many have already gotten the message. Many are getting that message through this forum which gives FREE information on this very subject everyday. To Mr. Platt and Mr. Parmenter… catch up dudes.
I still work in the boat building industry but not with epoxies.I only use epoxies when I repair epoxy surfboards.(in small amounts)The epoxies used in the boatyards I worked for were the top of the range epoxies .You dont use cheap and nasty epoxy when you are building state of the art ocean racing yachts worth millions of dollars.Even after taking the usual precautions like wearing a Sundstrom resporator,rubber gloves and trying to avoid getting the resin on me, I still reacted. The same precautions were taken when cleaning up.I remember on a hot afternoon mixing up a batch of epoxy,I was asked to use the fast hardener, and as I was mixing the hardener into the resin it was smoking.This brew lasted in the container for 20 minutes or so before it went off. So thats pretty much why I dont work with epoxy in large amounts for long periods of time any more.
pardon me mrs prime minister…there is a thread hanging…from the hem of your skirt…that is Christian Dior? is it not…by the way the antagonism between the houses ,lords and commons,could easily be plasketted,why for the same amount of energy they spend disputing ,the budget could be balanced and their wives and children would regain their cheery countenance I suggest a holiday much the same as the polynesian islanders celebrate I believe it was this time of year as well they all left home went to the beach and had something of an olympics… well all diciplines were practiced and contested … Makahiki… they called it …I believe the culture achieved an interesting balance… after these water sports activites the exaustion of the participants was intensified by the great quantites of food consumed… there were of course cultural shortcomings but this one feature led to a most magnanimous attitude in general not like our cultural proclivity for sniping and back biting in defense causes so transient as to humor even the lowest of the woodcutters lot…ah but I take too much of your time you must be onward to catch the transit…where ? Oh You Are going to the sea .I am sorry to have taken your precious time …indeed another wave has broken …and gone unridden…Huzzah my dear and tarry not be of good cheer and all that rot …she’s so much more balanced since she started riding a Velzy you can tell the difference its like night and day…and she looks pretty enough once her hair gets wet…and to think they painted all those new boards with Lacquer instead of Varnish its heresy I tell you Heresy I would no sooner eat a packaged cookie than use that Infernal lacquer the tide is high lets go for a scull…your boat is delightfully fast how do you do it.? Sir Ambroise Ridgequest gad about town and aquatics enthusiast imploring all to raise themselves up with aquatics
not to get off topic or anything, but this is exactly why renaissance faires can be very very scary. Yet another good post