Paul Gross fin discussion 4A/ 4C

General Discussion
1

I was going through the archivesd gathering info on fins for my 8’ veebottom and 10’4 magic ham. As previosly posted there was a lot of info on the standard true ames 4A and 4C fins. To make a long story short I emailed true ames regarding the new volan flex 4A fins. Pauls problem with the fins was that they were made from a 3/8 thick panel not the optimal 1/2 panel for those templates.The current 4C  9,5 template was modified by Paul to suit the 3/8 panel, but the 4A standard and volan flex is stil made from 3/8 panel according to true ames customer service.

So is anyone making the 4A template out of 1/2 panels?

What fin would you recommend for a 10’4 magic sam type longboard/hull? I have the standrad 9’5 4C.

I have been quite happy with the standard 9 4A fin in my Bruce Fowler veebottom but I also  have heaps of respect for Pauls knowledge and would love to try 4A/wilderness template made out of the correct panel.

Here is the info I gathered from Paul’s and Matt’s posts: 

Greenough/Wilderness stage 4 A &  Paul Gross 4C

**“On the other hand, the Greenough Stage 4 is, in my opinion, the best shortboard single fin design ever concieved. It generates the most power relative to the least amount of drag, and after 30 plus years of modifying it (just for fun), it still works best as it was originally concieved…with this qualifier: the original molded Stage 4 WAVE fin was made 5/8” thick so the plastic material would be stiff enough. That thickness is way too full for a fin with a small base (5"). This is why the original molded versions never caught on. If you make one out of a 3/8" fiberglass panel, and keep the high point of the foil well forward, it is an absolute ripper. **I’ll post some station measurement of the outline later.

The Stage 4 is neither the True Aimes 4A or 4C. No one makes the ****template from 1970. I have tried to post the coordinates to that ****template above, but can’t get it to be legible.

** The flex tip was designed as a basic 9" hull fin. I have no knowledge or control over how they are foiled, so I can’t really say much more than that. It’s not a critical design, so I’m sure they work pretty well. The Whale Tail fin that Spence uses is out of a 1/2" thick panel, which is necessary for the design to work as intended. The Aimes WT is made out of 3/8" thick panel, so it is a little stiff turning. However, since your board has a bit more rocker than Spence’s, a stock WT might be fine. **Only personal use can tell.

PG made me a “correct” stage 4 recently.I put it in a 9’ hull-a board in which was sporting a tru-ames 9" l-flex.the fins are pretyy close in template, but the foil is way different.(the stage 4 does have less base area)Anyway,the difference in performance was really amazing. the power that little stage 4 fin generated was incredible. Yes, the l-flex and “real” Liddle fins are flexible and fast, but this stage 4 was that and more!I honestly couldn’t believe the performance difference. In addition to being powerful, it was faster and turned easier. the really neat thing was that it maintained it’s speed/power thru the turns, unlike the l-flex for example, which turns fast, then kinda goes dead before you load it up for the next direction. The stage 4 just simply maintains that speed constantly, and really blasts out of turns. If you can get PG to make you one, it’s worth the money. Oh yeah, I sent that fin to Liddle to try on his Hanalei board and he was stoked!

**The Stage 4 really isn’t that good of a longboard fin. It turns great and is pretty fast, but you can’t get forward to trim through small sections. **Kind of frustrating.

Pg is right.the stage 4 is for the stubbies. I believe it will be perfect for my 8’8" semi gun as well. even though the board i use it in is 9’, it’s not a "longboard"rather, it is a 7’ roundtail stub stretched out to 9’and blade thin. it surfs like a 7 footer but has that nice comfort of paddle-ability in order to handle the increasing crowds on their 10’ noseriders. I am sure you have a board that a stage 4 would work in.eg, the Dr. Kervorkian!?

The 4C is nothing like the Stage 4, even if it was scaled down to 9". It is a fin designed to be used with a 3/8" thick panel…that’s why the base is realatively narrow. The Aimes 4A is supposed to be made from a 1/2" panel, but they offer it in a 3/8" panel, which is way too thin. Not a good fin as they make it. When the 4A is made out of a 1/2" panel, it is failry versitile, but it like wider square and arc tails best.

**Yes, power is lost when a surfboard fin flexes. But what happens, on the right equipment, is that the fin gives way and allows the drive area of the board to function in a turn…if the drive area is forward of center. Then when the board levels out, the fin returns to it’s original shape and drives the board like a sail. A stiff, smaller fin will allow a board to roll over onto it’s forward rail in a turn, but lacks drive as the turn releases. **This is a very hard thing to verbalize. Sorry."

 

 

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2

I’ve been wanting to try a legit PG Whale Tail fin for a long time.  I wonder if Larry Allison is still making them?  

3

Wow, i love hearing the stories of evolution as well as a real opinion about fin design and dimensions.   More more more.

4

thats a cut and paste of p/g s  true ames rant

  i have been doing a version of g/g fin since 19 68 re templated by platt and myself

and still do.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7hH8UeiL4CE/UK9RbXePH-I/AAAAAAAAAcc/wwjaUI6N0ss/s1600/DSC01558.JPG

cheers huie

5

“a version” makes it your version.  Anyways, nice fin.  

6

I’ve tried both of those fins and gave them both away. At the time I was getting more drive from a fin a bit shorter with a wider base. I recently bought another 4a to see if my recollection was accurate.  Havn’t tried it yet, but it would be pretty easy to add the layers of glass and refoil.  Maybe not so easy to get a professional foil, but fun to do a before and after comparison.  I’ve been having fun with the Mikey DeTemple fin from Rainbow.  Even more fun with the wood fin Bill T template. No flex. Mike

7

I’m lucky to have one of huies. I had a 9 1/2" that I bought in my longboard. Great fin, I did enjoy it. Though huie made me a 7 1/2" one. I tried it in my longboard ( round pin ), and I had no less drive, but about 3 million times the manouverability. 

 

Thanks huie. One day I’ll get a 7’0" single fin off josh to go with it!. 

8

**haa beery get him to do a 6’  6’’     

 i can not remember did you order the fin at 7’’ or did i f##k up?   let me know can soon fix that little problem**

 

cheers huie

9

“What fin would you recommend for a 10’4 magic sam type longboard/hull? I have the standrad 9’5 4C.”

The “Big Red” fin from Fibreglas Fin Co.  It is from PG’s original 9.5" fin.  6" base x 1/2" thick panel.

The Whaletail design is also available.

 

10

The last time I visited his shop Larry Allison spent 20 minutes extolling the virtues of using 6oz glass for flex fins.  I never realized before that it’s a big deal.  

11

Nah mate, it was for a 6’6" but I tried it in my longboard. Figured it’d be too small by itself but it went insane. 6’6" egg could work well for me. I made one but I left it way too thick and boaty up the front. I’ve started pushing the kids into small waves on it, they love it! I use a different fin though, don’t want to risk yours on the rocks, the kids have a habit of riding up to the rocks haha.

12

Thanks for the info guys.

Like I said I’ve been pretty happy with the standard 4A, never spun out that wide tail even with the 4A this far up in the box. These veebottoms are amazing designs when done right. Trimming and carving from the same spot. Very loose feels like surfing a 7’ board and rely paddles like a longboard, even catches waves earlier then the 10’4 magic ham.

Here is some more of Paul Gross 4A/4C fin talk copied from the archives:

" For the record: Even though I have issues with True Ames, the stock Greenough 4C fin works in the stock, 3/8” thick form, because I altered my original 9.5” template to work with a 3/8” thick panel. However, the stock Wilderness/Greenough 4A is a dog. If you want to try the performance of the “Wilderness/G4A” as it was intended, buy a stock True Ames version, sand the finish off of it, lay up 7 layers of 6 oz cloth on each side, refoil it into a flex fin, and you will have a ½” thick 9.75” Wilderness fin… and it will rip. Better yet, ride it as a stock 3/8” thick fin, THEN build it up to ½” and feel the difference. "

"The so-called “True Ames Greenough 4C” started out as a fin I made for myself, FROM SCRATCH, in the late 80’s. It was 9.5” deep, with a ½” thick foil at the base. It was, and is, a good fin. There is NO DOUBT that it resembles many fins made by George Greenough, Michael Cundith, Skip Frye, Greg Liddle, Bob Duncan, etc. But, I began with a blank piece of cardboard one rainy spring afternoon, started drawing curves from scratch, made prototypes, altered them, and 3 years later ended up with a fin that I really liked in hulls over 8’8” long. It was just something I did for myself, for fun. (Spencer Kellogg owns the last of the prototype fins.) If the True Ames Greenough 4C resembles fins made by other builders, I’m not surprised. As I’ve said before, good fins tend to reinvent themselves."

 

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13

Amazing what a differnece fins can make in a board switched out the custom Larry Allison fin that came with the MagicHam for the 9,5 true ames 4c. Right away the baord felt like it was dragging kelp when paddling out, catching waves was a hell f a lot harder and the board felt “stuck,” even when dropping in it just felt like the handbrake was on. Tried moving it around in the box but it was still miles away from the drive and ease of paddling the widebased Larry Allison fin gave.

Even though the Magic Ham is not a copy of Nat’s Magic Sam, it’s stil in the same ballpark. Feels like a board with soft pinched 50/50 rails an a rolled bottom needs a widebased fin for drive in small/soft waves, Nat was running a 12’ stage III greenough and the board seems to have plenty of drive in this short clip.

Most of it is Nat of course but he same thing goes for Gary Keyes surfing in the sand dunes scene in Innemost limits of pure fun, so much drive with those huge fins! But at what point does a fin like this start to create to much drag, not many on the market over 10’ these days.

 

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14

go to kpsroundup and check the phd fins he has posted…wide base, a fuller, rounded leading edge and some flex. the work really well…