Is there value in something that hasn't been hyped to death in the media or endorsed by a high paid pro? Does Average Joe know the difference?
If someone displayed a "No Logo" board by Guilhem Rainfray, Jim Phillips, Bruce Fowler or one of the other craftsmen we have around here, would Average Joe know it was a good board?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html
John, as much as I appreciate your quoting my name alongside Jim’s and Bruce’s, I just do not play in the same field. Both of them are legends with (hundreds of?) thousands boards under their belts. I am not.
Anyway, you’re probably right about Joe Average. Good ol’ Joe always bought (and will continue to buy) only what is ridden by the best. Sad but true. It takes education for people to understand what boards are good or not and many just don’t care about being educated…
awesome read. thanks for the link john.
definatly interesting thoughts
that’s a great article. thanks.
i doubt that the average joe would be able to recognize a good board w/out the “proper” logo
Interesting…I’m guessing that if they had played the gambit at noon or at 5:00 PM, the results would have been much different. As an amateur musician, I am compelled to stop and listen to any good musician because I know how hard it is to get good. But, if I’m late for work, maybe not.
If average Joe has a good ten years of surfing under his belt, and has ridden a number of boards, he will know a good one after a couple of waves. If Joe has been surfing for 20-30 years and shaped a few, he’d know by running his hands down the rails, looking down the stringer and hefting it under his arms.
Interesting article, thanks.
Regarding craftsmanship, my vote would be for 'on average, no they wouldn't' – especially if it was just a functional comparison of clear (no graphics) surfboards (and using the same glasser.) Less so if you allowed graphics and specialty work -i.e. shifting the focus more towards presentation rather than content (or, in this case function.)
Given the question, I'm not sure why anyone would think otherwise – the question answers itself –i.e. “average Joe” is the one doing the discerning. Also, I'm inclined to believe, when you're dealing with the surfboard market, or just about any market nowadays, it probably makes more sense to think in terms of 'modal' Joe or Jane.
kc
HeyJohn - Well, that was interesting. I’d suggest the morning rush hour was a set up. If it had been the afterwork time, I think more people may have hung around. Plus, I’m sure many folk just don’t care for classical that much.
But, to relate it to surfing and your question: If one of the guys you mentioned shaped a long board and a great long boarder rode it at some place like Trestles or where ever, I’m sure lots of short boarders would not take notice.
As for just a board - I’d say forget about it…
That was a great read. I’ve been witness to simlar situations, though they were not intentional. I’ve worked as a techie in the live concert biz since 1967. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve worked with top notch talent who were virtually ignored or met with indifference by the ‘public’. As the years progressed, it seems to be more the case. Joe Average concertgoer can’t tell shit from brilliance. They “like” what the marketing dept of the corporations tell them is “good”. Same goes with surfboards and related gear. Witness the advent of $100 ‘technically advanced’ boardshorts. hey, the pros wear them, so they must be good for performance, right? (Gagging sound)
had a funny conversation with a young friend, yesterday. She bought a Surftech with a Becker label. I guess I didn’t hide my aversion to those things, so she asked “why the face”? I told her my opinion, and she said she was told they were “better than fiberglass”. I asked where she bought it, and if the sales person actually surfed. I said that I would never do business with shop that didn’t know Surftechs were MADE WITH FIBERGLASS. Just another example of how far things have sunk.
Don’t even get me started about the donkey fest I witnessed yesterday at my home break.
Thanks for posting that.
Reminds me of an experience I had a few years ago. The Laguna Beach Sawdust Festival, mid week, midday. A guy starts playing the guitar and singing. There’s always musicians there, mostly doing acoustic covers. There were probably about three sitting listening. It’s not like a particularly prestigious gig. I stopped because he looked like someone I might have known in high school. Kind of tall and dorky. But after a minute my wife and I were mesmerized. Really original. We somehow felt this guy was far too talented to be playing such a venue. Little by little people stopped to listen and if they did they all remained for the remainder of his set. I don’t know if he’s made inroads. He’s not a household name. I did notice he now has “official” videos. But it was one of those situations where the quality rose above the circumstances and kind of shone.
Llilibel, thanks for posting those links. Just another case of a great talent that I would probably never have listened to. Although I’m pretty sure the world will hear of him in the future. “The holidays are here and we’re still at war”, great song. The guy reminds me of young Dylan and/or Donovan.
As an Average Surfing Joe myself i can say with a high degree of certainty that I would not recognize an unmarked board just by looking at it. I would not know what to look for in a well made board. To me a well polished factory board looks just as good as some custom boards.
So I put this to you...what it is that an average joe like me has to look for when looking at a board... someone mentioned looking down the stringer, checking the rails etc... But what it is exacltly that differenciates a good custom from a non custom. By looking at the board features, what difference should I see in order to decide which board is better crafted?
PS, I am not questioning your level of craftsmanship, dedication or love for what you do. I would just like to know what is it that differentiates the customs from the factory.
I do longboard a little bit, but to put me on a fine noserider would be a complete waste. I can’t noseride and wouldn’t know a good design from a mediocre design.
for shortboards, yes I would know after a few waves.
I have experience in the order of what you are saying but no I couldn’t do that. With the aid of a rocker stick, straight edge to check the concaves, tape measure to check thruster fin positions I think I could pick a shortboard that is suitable. Eyeballing rails and thickness would be good enough.
for a custom order given to a trusted shaper I would need to specify those things to guarantee a board that is suitable.
G’day retrothis, thats a good question and similar to Dean’s question Although he got a bit slammed for his take on the question I think he has a point.
a quote from Surfding from another thread
he was referring to pro surfers, however even me the ordinary guy chases magic, although being ordinary I’ll settle for a board that is just suitable. But when I get magic its an absolute delight to my senses. I always secretly hope for magic, but I think its unreasonable to expect to get magic every time from any custom shaper.
However I’ve never gone to such lengths. Neither for stock model or custom (my latest custom was an exception).
Instead I’ve made a great leap of faith based on the shaper having a good local following or a stock shape coming from a superstar shaper. My experiences so far is that both methods are hit and miss and either can get magic. So far the stock boards from the superstars are winning!
see my posts on the our shapers thread
So yes I think the superstars really are good for more reasons than marketing and a trendy label. They keep the pros happy and know how to scale and detune to keep the masses like me happy. However any very good local shaper is capable of making magic for the masses, but its going to be very hit and miss. I’m talking about magic, something that is just suitable is a lot more achievable. These are my experiences anyway.
But would the average joe even notice a good board in surfshop if it didn’t have the right logo? I’m saying right logo, as a board without a logo in a surfshop might draw attention.
If a board works, it works.
There's definitely a clear distinction between craftsmanship and design. A well crafted board doesn't necessarily mean a well designed board, and vice versa.
I'm inclined to believe that people in general, would be able discern the level of craftsmanship, regardless of design. Knowing good design from bad is just a whole other matter.
kc
[quote="$1"]
There's definitely a clear distinction between craftsmanship and design. A well crafted board doesn't necessarily mean a well designed board, and vice versa.
Knowing good design from bad is just a whole other matter.
kc
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Very good point.
… there's more.
You could take this parsing even further. There's engineering design, functional design, and then there's this whole area of you might refer to as a presentation design.
This latter design [presentation] is the one that sort of grabs your eye, like a flower, or for that matter, a sign on the Las Vegas strip enticing you to come in and try your luck. Or my favorite, like the gargoyles on a medieval cathedral enticing pilgrims to come in and part with a few coins out of awe. (Which admittedly is very similar to the signs on the Las Vegas strip, but perhaps we should leave that for another thread, or forum, or maybe another website altogether.)
All these designs can overlap to some degree. This is especially true of engineering and functional. But still, surely it is possible to envision that something might be well engineered yet not functionally up to the task, or vice versa.
Traditionally, the belief has been that over his 'journey', the 'journeyman' would master all, including craftsmanship. And it worked, for the most part. But one of the problems with such a system was that it tended to leave innovation solely in the hands of the journeyman, which does tend constrain development. For example, you really don't have to be a journeyman to come up with a different functional design, or structural design or even presentational design for that matter.
It's hardly a new thought, but I would suggest that we are witnessing a pretty clear separation of roles in the surf industry. The rise of CAD/CAM is changing everything. It's not just about economics.
kc
iPods are very popular and they sound like crap but that's not the point. Most people want a beat and a little catchy melody to distract them. That's all. They will even tell you they "love" music.
Many surfers are the same.
C
So for a fair comparison, if you were running late for work, going with the flow of sheeple down the walkway,
and some kook was holding a non descript fun board a few yards off to the side and taking into account that
you hate kooks and funboards, would you rush over and run your hands down the rails and flip the board up
on its nose and take a sight down the stringer regardless of its craftmanship and that unbeknownst to you, it
was shaped by a master of funboards?
I know I wouldn't
They could probably tell by the price.
A “big name” charges more money, even if its crap… or done over here (china)
cough cough, (insert many big USA and OZ names here, that will cause me trouble if written)
(sorry, Its ok guys, dont get ruffelled, You bought the one he made in OZ or USA)